Let's talk about Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, and how unbelievably fucked up this all is

how do you sneak up BEHIND someone and then punch them in the face

alley-oop punch

http://www.herosandwich.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/fnf-plasjoker.jpg

seems like ANY possible version of the night boils down to "unarmed black teenager shot to death by paranoid racist vigilante"

what if Trayvon had a screwdriver

seems like ANY possible version of the night boils down to "unarmed black teenager shot to death by paranoid racist vigilante"

― I DIED, Monday, March 26, 2012 6:04 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

aw shucks *kicks dirt*

Josh you took the same line with DSK iirc. "Hang on, wait a minute, let's consider what we absolutely know to be true".. Am I remembering that right? I have a lot of time for that hard-boiled approach to crime especially since it can yield such dramatically satisfying twists but at the same time I'm not a cop or a journalist reporting this story so I'm really pretty comfortable completely convicting GZ in the court of my own opinion.

i'm somewhere in the middle. i know what i believe happened (a racist psycho straight-up murdered trayvon martin), and i think that there's good reason to believe this. at the same time, i'm aware of how easy it is to manufacture erroneous belief, conscious of the limitations of my own understanding. this leaves me not vacillating, exactly, yet not entirely fixed in my convictions. i'm prepared to stand for what i believe, but i'm also open to new information.

I don't see any reason yet for this story to stray from "one guy had a handgun and the other guy's dead".

http://www.lowendtheory.org/post/19640906873/justice-for-trayvon-but-how

I don't see any reason yet for this story to stray from "one guy had a handgun and the other guy's dead".

― Whiney Houson (WmC), Monday, March 26, 2012 6:14 PM (7 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes this is usually enough for arrest. as it should be IMO.

what motive would Trayvon have for just jumping a guy, especially one so much bigger than him

DSK charged with "aggravated pimping" today btw

Slate:

There’s a certain irony here: Usually, police and prosecutors control the narrative of a criminal case. They hold a press conference, announce they are bringing charges, and tell a story that becomes the official version until trial. Once in a while, defense lawyers try to counter some or all of it. But most of the time they don’t. That’s in part because of the rules that limit what lawyers can say about pending criminal cases, for fear of influencing the jury pool. And it’s in part because if defense lawyers put out their clients’ competing version of events, and then end up offering a different defense at trial, it’s a problem.

This time, though, the decision not to arrest Zimmerman was so hard to fathom that the version of events that has taken root is not the police’s or Zimmerman’s. It’s the Martin family’s version. Now it’s the cops’ turn to grind their teeth, resort to leaks, and hope they can somehow turn the direction of the tsunami of news coverage. To do that, though, they’ll need more than unnamed witnesses. For once, it doesn’t even matter that the black teenager who was the victim here was suspended from school because traces of marijuana were found in his book bag, as his family confirmed Monday. The country has already fallen in love with Trayvon Martin. If the Sanford police want to convince us they did the right thing in letting his killer go, they’ll have to prove it. They’ll need a hearing in open court, not anonymous leaks.

said a million times itt but i just can't handle this thing at all

yes this is usually enough for arrest. as it should be IMO.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, March 26, 2012 6:15 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^this is definitely the most "actionable" thing here. like, the maybe-this maybe-that theorizing is typically what happens in a court of law; iirc most ppl get arrested for killing other people, even if it is widely assumed by everyone involved that they will be found innocent because of self-defense or something. in this case, the law in place (afaik) allows the ~police~ to decide whether or not someone can be ~arresed~ for homicide, even when it has clearly taken place, and there are no fucking witnesses (other than maybe the cop). it isn't just that what happened was, along with the official response, racially motivated, it's that the law has made that possible. i mean, it seems plausible to me that the law as it is currently written would permit a scenario where a cop is parked in a car across the street, and sees a guy jump out and assault another guy, who is armed. other guy shoots and kills his assailant, in full view. cop says to himself "clearly self-defense/a guy standing his ground" and does not arrest anyone. he can make that call. this might be permissible for petty crimes, but i think that anytime someone gets straight up killed by anyone else, a formal investigation is worth being an option

i think that anytime someone gets straight up killed by anyone else, a formal investigation is worth being an option an absolute necessity, in all cases, always

anytime anyone intentionally take lethal action against someone else, they should have to defend their actions in a court of law. an actual trial, and not just an investigation (though that too), should be the standard response in such situations, even where police officers are involved.

i mean that's basically what i was driving at there---like, at the very very least, a (coarsely) civil society would think it prudent to officially look into the matter of someone shooting another person dead.

also whoever posted that lowendtheory piece upthread (above the fold) was otm

this is precisely what's wrong with Stand Your Ground. George Will of all people got this right yesterday morning:

ABC’s George Will called the “Stand Your Ground” law a “bad idea” because it “confers upon citizens the illusion at least that they have something like powers exercised by highly trained police officers.”

“[The law] tries to codify a right of self-defense,” Will said. “Mr. Zimmerman says he was acting under this self-defense law, but he is said to have been recorded saying that he was in pursuit of the person. You cannot be in pursuit and acting in self-defense.”

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/03/donna-brazile-george-will-question-stand-your-ground-law/

stopped clock etc

also whoever posted that lowendtheory piece upthread (above the fold) was otm

― catbus otm (gbx), Monday, March 26, 2012 6:42 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that was me. i don't necessarily agree w/ the abolitionist view this article is (implicitly?) taking but it still makes a ton of great points.

tbh if you just called the cops on me for 10 minutes and told them everything from the fact that something is wrong with me or I'm on drugs or insinuated I'm reaching for a weapon simply cuz I'm black and you're fixated on me to the point of making me uncomfortable, I might, MIGHT, MIGHT JUST PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE.

and y'know what? doesn't really support the shooting still. especially when the dude weighs 110 more pounds (and lol now there's dudes suggesting the media is lying about Trayvon's weight even tho the pics clearly show the dude was thin as fuck...omg he's 6'2, guess what, I was 6'0 and weighed 135 in high school and couldn't kick nobody's ass).

The thing is, Zimmermann's team and the slew of Zimmermann apologists are garnering power by doing the same thing that Dubya did during the Iraq War: getting everyone to fixate so much on the equation that they don't bother to consider the solution to the formula. IE, they want everyone to believe that if Trayvon laid a finger on Zimmermann, that this immediately revokes his innocence, this is no longer a tragedy, and it was clearly self-defense.

And yet, I can think of about a million scenarios that could have unfolded, and yet in my mind, only ONE that would have legtimized the shooting. And sadly, that one is already refuted by the audio. If Trayvon had approached Zimmermann, jumped him from behind, and made a movement like he was going for a weapon all unprovoked, maybe, just maybe i'd consider it justified.

But right now, the reality seems more like if Trayvon committed any act of violence at all, it was probably because HE felt like HE was in danger, and it was instigated by Zimmermann's Travis Bickle fucking behavior.

Who in here hasn't gotten in a fist fight in their life? How many of you were shot during it?

Zimmermann so strongly believed that Trayvon was a threat in his deluded mind that he gamed the situation to one where he forced Trayvon to act out, then via self-fulfilling prophecy, became the 'hero' in his own mind. He's the fucking lead character from Observe and Report.

And we have white people talking about how it's ok cuz Trayvon mighta scuffed up his Chuck Taylors and gave him a few little scrapes?

FUCK THIS SHIT.

just an unbelievably stupid law. pretty sure the kids in lord of the flies did better then these people.

additionally crazy is the fact that if i were say a criminal i could try to leverage this law to my advantage: arrange a situation in which a guy i want dead for w/e reason can be killed either because he provoked me (also arranged) or where there were no eyewitnesses. in the latter case, you just leave the body where it is, call the cops, tell them it was self-defense, and they don't arrest you. in florida.

totally. All you have to do is lay the groundwork, watch it unfold, shoot, and boom, mission accomplished.

yeah this law is a big gift to dateline nbc's next season.

I think when I eventually decide to move out of FL I'm going to dress up in a Mickey Mouse costume and shoot up Disney World

yeah this law is a big gift to dateline nbc's next season.

i was thinking the same thing. someone needs to set a reality show in florida. contestants will be scored on their ability to provoke "threatening" responses from unwary strangers, whom they must then kill. just think of the ratings, and it's all perfectly legal!

I mean if I'd known Uncle Jimbo's "They're coming right for us!" was a strategy and not just a comic one-liner....

look out mama there's a white boat comin up the river

now Zimm is saying Trayvon went for his gun. I'm too weary to parse any more of this right now...

fictionalise your ground

you can always tell a bully by the speed of their transition from villain to victim.

truth bomb x30000000000

additionally crazy is the fact that if i were say a criminal i could try to leverage this law to my advantage: arrange a situation in which a guy i want dead for w/e reason can be killed either because he provoked me (also arranged) or where there were no eyewitnesses. in the latter case, you just leave the body where it is, call the cops, tell them it was self-defense, and they don't arrest you. in florida.

― catbus otm (gbx), Monday, March 26, 2012 7:57 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

I think that gangs in florida have used the law in this way before, iirc? not sure

it's otherwise known as "Saturday Night"

I do not and never did miss florida after I left.

it's otherwise known as "Saturday Night"

when no one hits on me I hit him back.

Police: Zimmerman says Trayvon decked him with one blow then began hammering his head.

This punch allegedly happened at 9:00 pm on 3/26/2012...

...in teh mind of a delusional fuckwit

If all of this had taken place in Zimmerman's yard, he might have had a leg to stand on. It did not, so he does not. PERIOD.

Latest from The Miami Herald:

The Miami Gardens teen who has become a national symbol of racial injustice was suspended three times, and had a spotty school record that his family’s attorneys say is irrelevant to the facts that led up to his being gunned down on Feb. 26.

In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the f---.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.

Instead the officer reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a “burglary tool,” according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald. Word of the incident came as the family’s lawyer acknowledged that the boy was suspended in February for getting caught with an empty bag with traces of marijuana, which he called “irrelevant” and an attempt to demonize a victim.

Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

Trayvon was not disciplined because of the discovery, but was instead suspended for graffiti, according to the report. School police impounded the jewelry and sent photos of the items to detectives at Miami-Dade police for further investigation.

A lawyer for the dead teen’s family acknowledged Trayvon had been suspended for graffiti, but said the family knew nothing about the jewelry and the screwdriver.

“It’s completely irrelevant to what happened Feb. 26,” said attorney Benjamin Crump. “They never heard this, and don’t believe it’s true. If it were true, why wouldn’t they call the parents? Why wasn’t he arrested?”

I mean, if he'd kept following Trayvon, is there any point when it might've been a more dubious cry of self-defense? Like, if he'd followed him onto his porch? Into his bedroom? Where does it fucking end?

why do I have a feeling is the end result of this is Zimmermann remaining a free man and the parents having whatever dignity they had left drug through teh mud....

trayvon threatened him by being black

“It’s completely irrelevant to what happened Feb. 26”

otm

i wasn't exactly a delinquent growing up and I did things equally as bad as what was described in that first article re: Trayvon. I liked destroying school property for one.

i mean next they'll suggest that he SNUCK INTO AN R- RATED MOVIE BEFORE HE AWS 17

Let's say, just for the sake of argument, Trayvon had actually been on his way to rob someone's house. In what world (I know, Florida) is that an excuse for an uninvolved party to shoot him to death?