The Locking of the Avril Thread

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GM: I think we got pissed off only after we wrote what came naturally to us and it offended people. We were determined to leave it in. It was just the way we talked. It’s surprising how brainwashed by hippies most of our generation is. Pro-love, pro-diversity, pro-tolerance–that’s the hippies’ bag. You want to hear people talk about niggers, try hanging around with black people. They are harsh. You want to hear anti-Semitism, go hang around with some Jews. You should hear Suroosh talk about fucking Pakis. It’s ear-burning. I’d argue that racists like the KKK don’t really have anything to say about niggers and fags because they don’t know any. They don’t go, "I am so sick of fucking drag queens. They are so self-indulgent. Fashion this, fashion that. Can’t you talk about politics for one second, you fucking transsexual?" They don’t know. We’re in the thick of it. When we’re pitching our television show, I say, "Understand that we are freaks. We’re not delving into the freak world. We live with the dregs of humanity. So when we say that we’re going to do a little questionnaire, like, ‘Do you think Saddam has weapons?’ we’re not going to talk to dentists and stuff. We’re going to ask our friends, and it’ll be a stripper, a junkie lying on the sidewalk, a bald guy with AIDS…"

SS: It’s the universality of youth subculture. With magazines being read internationally and so many tv shows and movies going international, the trendsetting kids in France, Germany, the UK or fucking New York are wearing the same jeans and listening to the same music. I would say that people in London and Manchester are more excited [about Vice] than people in New York and L.A. The response here is insane, but there it’s fanatical, with 1000 copies or whatever the hell we seeded it with. We’ve been called the best magazine in the world by four of the best magazines in England. Coming from Montreal was like coming from Reykjavik to some people. Like, "How can they talk about hiphop, the frozen troglodytes?" I don’t know if it’s the foreign thing or just the renaissance in New York, but you can open up any English magazine and see, like, a picture of the coffee guy over on the corner.

GM: Yeah, they’re really impressed by Williamsburg. You’re like, "You mean the big dorm? The fucking flipflop capital of the world?"

Don’t you get hostile being in this neighborhood every day?

GM: Well, at least they’re not fucking niggers or Puerto Ricans. At least they’re white

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:04 (twenty-one years ago)

not a new controversy

Far from groundbreaking, the mag is just the latest in a tired tradition that stretches back through the early-'90s hatezine Answer Me!, the '80s underground of Amok Press, Loompanics, and Forced Exposure, all the way to Hustler and Screw. Vice also trails in the slimy wake of the British magazine Loaded, whose unrepentantly reprobate machismo (slogan: "For men who should know better") reached our shores via Maxim and FHM.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:06 (twenty-one years ago)

This is a great demonstration of John's point (I think it was John) that de-railed threads are the best threads ever.

― Scott CE (Scott CE), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:06 (twenty-one years ago)

See, this is the thing Momus; McInnes comes across as a racist douchebag. Why are you so quick to align yourself with someone with this image?

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Momus I don't have a copy to hand but when last I read one am I misremembering them throwing around the word "jew," with a lower-case even? I don't think so.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:07 (twenty-one years ago)

We did Calum a year ago, and we did this, with the same Gavin Mc Cut/Pastes, a year ago. I seem to remember I told you that my Bangladeshi in-laws called each other 'Paki'. Update: most people on ILX have now shifted their views on Vice. Many read it and find it amusing.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:08 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.ananova.com/images/web/61256.jpg

― kephm, Friday, 18 June 2004 18:10 (twenty-one years ago)

oh please Momus give it up.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:10 (twenty-one years ago)

(P.S. While I imagine that Momus, guardian of "free speech," will find the whole thing disturbing, cause for alarm!!! I think it's great that Google has a little "offensive search results" deal at the top of the page.)

xpost: Update: most people on ILX have now shifted their views on Vice. Many read it and find it amusing.

Update: you're either delusional or you're kidding yourself. Most people who decry racism hate Vice with a passion.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Update: most people on ILX have now shifted their views on Vice. Many read it and find it amusing.

Produce your Nixonian "Silent Majority," please.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Momus, what do your inlaws have to do with Macinnes's words?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:13 (twenty-one years ago)

John, I clicked the first of those 'jew' refs and got Sarah Silberman:

http://www.viceland.com/issues/v10n10/htdocs/free.php

Hint: You need to read the texts, not just Google.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:13 (twenty-one years ago)

seriously Momus I respect your intelligence and I've grown to like you personally. Your refusal to at the very least register some concern about, say, the total fucking bullshit I linked to above is really a huge bummer. And if you think people who wanna "liberate" the word "Jew" aren't gonna vote Bush, you're kidding yourself like way super-bad.

I love how my California patois comes out when I get all aggro

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:13 (twenty-one years ago)

DID YOU CLICK ON ANY OF THE OTHERS, MY MYOPIC FRIEND? jesus CHRIST

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Jesus Christ. Have fun with your edgy magazine, bwana.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Hint: You need to read the texts, not just Google.

And seriously, eat a bag of dicks for this. Have you read the other texts?

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:15 (twenty-one years ago)

MOMUS: Punk was exciting — the energy, the anger, the hatred, the visciousness, the bile, the spleen! But it wasn't smart enough, and it wasn't going anywhere politically. The "no-future" philosophy actually, if anything, ushered in the conservatives.
STEVE: Like Nixon in '68.

oh jesus

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:15 (twenty-one years ago)

six fucking pages of racist drivel and Momus wants to defend it. Sad stuff, man.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Momus is latin for the point when the left become right again.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Momus, what do your inlaws have to do with Macinnes's words

Gavin says:

'You want to hear people talk about niggers, try hanging around with black people. They are harsh. You want to hear anti-Semitism, go hang around with some Jews. You should hear Suroosh talk about fucking Pakis. It’s ear-burning. I’d argue that racists like the KKK don’t really have anything to say about niggers and fags because they don’t know any. They don’t go, "I am so sick of fucking drag queens. They are so self-indulgent. Fashion this, fashion that. Can’t you talk about politics for one second, you fucking transsexual?" They don’t know. We’re in the thick of it.'

This theme, who is entitled to say what about whom, is one Vice keeps coming back to. It's also what Sarah's article is about.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Of course A.O. "Tony" Scott is white. Do you seriously think the Times would employ TWO black film critics?

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Why is your idea of a better world one where everyone is allowed to refer to each other in the most demeaning, hateful ways possible, bwana?

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:19 (twenty-one years ago)

That's some bleeding-edge thinking right there. I mean, Chris Rock hasn't based a career on it or anything.

xpost

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:19 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost to Momus - you are no longer entitled to say anything about American politics ever again. Oh okay, you can say anything you want, but there's no reason why anyone should ever think what you have to say is interesting or important.

jaymc - no, I was thought Elvis was Tony and Tony was Elvis, see?

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Nick, one of the most striking things I ever heard from you was the one time you mentioned performing a sad love song during the end of a relationship where you and the other person were both emotional wrecks. You're not a robot. You have a heart. And for all that you're posting under your stage name here, it's still clear to me you have that heart.

My question isn't why you're working with Vice, really. It isn't that you have a persona you maintain. It's just that you thrive off peoples' rage and anger so easily and so readily, and I wonder why. If you're like Calum in that respect -- well, enjoy. For my part, I think it's a sad waste of your own time and energy.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:20 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost - plus I just couldn't fathom a black man being named Elvis.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Americans either get very very angry about 'who is entitled to say what about whom', and we get into debates like the one this thread was started about: you can't say that. But it just so happens that the demographic Vice is interested in is comprised of people for whom 'you can't say that' is like a red rag to a bull.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Stupid people who think it's still 1985 (or 77 or 68)?

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Why is the rag always intrinsically worth waving?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, you're asking a songwriter. 'You can't say that' is just not an option.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Only incredibly naive, incredibly immature or incredibly stupid people think that upsetting and insulting people is automatically a good thing.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Which one are you?

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:25 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost you can blahblah all the livelong day l'il Nickie but until you have something interesting to say why shouldn't we tell you how stupid you can be?

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:26 (twenty-one years ago)

'You can't say that' is just not an option.

Why?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:27 (twenty-one years ago)

"to a poet, everything is useful" (probably misquoted) isn't an invitation to insult, divide and degrade people, Momus (sorry, don't post that often - I really like Momus though, from what I've read). All of the "don't tell me what to call people" is very 'funny' and 'cool' till you're getting those words scrawled on your walls or yelled at you when they kick you in the face. And arguing for these words only makes more space for violent and ill-intentioned people to operate.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:28 (twenty-one years ago)

J0hn, I'm dutifully trawling through the Google 'jew' stuff. Just got to a reader comment:

'Hitler had a point i think. Viceland NYC jew trucker hat beard sandle white trash black cock loving ethnic fags.'

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Only incredibly naive, incredibly immature or incredibly stupid people think that upsetting and insulting people is automatically a good thing.

Can somebody come up with one instance of this from the magazine or something I've written, please?

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:31 (twenty-one years ago)

this fucking thread to thread.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:32 (twenty-one years ago)

The amusing thing is that more hate gets flung around on this board every day than I've seen in Vice ever.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Can somebody come up with one instance of this from the magazine or something I've written, please?

Well you know, I hate to say it, but I felt pretty insulted upthread with some of your comments about me. I really did. Coming from C-Man, whatever. Coming from you, that's disappointing.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I like avril a lot.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:34 (twenty-one years ago)

"The White Noise Supremacists" to thread.

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:34 (twenty-one years ago)

"How can you tell if a thread is stupid or not"

Hmm.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Ned, you were out of order locking the threads, that's all. You actually agreed with me that this is counter-productive.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Ever since coming here, in 2001, I have argued for non-censorship. That is a fundamental part of what I'm about. Sorry if it offends. It's why I make Momus records, and it's why I write for Vice. It all fits.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:36 (twenty-one years ago)

people for whom 'you can't say that' is like a red rag to a bull.

Here in America we have a term for such people: "teenagers"

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:37 (twenty-one years ago)

No one is saying Vice should be censored, they're just saying it's fucking juvenile.

― St. Nicholas Ridiculous (Nick A.), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:39 (twenty-one years ago)

"Well if it isn't Sinead O'Rebellion... shock me shock me shock me with that deviant behavior."

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:39 (twenty-one years ago)

The Sarah Silverman article you linked to is illustrated by Brian Degraw, an artist I know from NY. He's in his 30s. Vice is written by and illustrated by artists and creative people like myself. They are my people and I think like them.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Believing in democracy doesn't mean you should vote BNP

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:40 (twenty-one years ago)

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