the USA, Israel, and national interest

he's not too good with technology, perhaps if you could liveblog from a sliderule

OMG! Hamas completely surrenders!

Just got here and the gathering crowds are massive. It is also rowdy
as hell

yeah so pro-suicide bomber hamas dude azzam tamimi spoke, which must've been edgy.

loving the media lens message board and all the idiot students mailing challenging essays to jeremy bowen and expecting heated debate when all they get is like

hi,

i covered this in my report yesterday.

jeremy bowen

SEE HOW HE IS A STOOGE OF THE CORPORATE ZIONIST MEDIA!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I did go to the demonstration and on the march. It was said that 100,000 people attended; maybe it was fewer, I don't know; certainly 10s of 1000s.

I don't know as much about the issue as others; it is not one with which I have ever been very familiar; but my sense is that the cause promoted today - protest against Israel's attacks on Palestinians and its starvation and disabling of their society - is just. As far as I can gather, Palestinian conditions are desperate, and are presumably getting more desperate year after year. I think that people are right to protest about this.

Pinefox OTM. It's too bad that there doesn't seem to be rhetorical space available for broad numbers of people to rally around that point alone, without too many inferences or distractions surrounding it.

inferences or distractions like being familiar with the issue you are marching on??

i don't mind pinefox being faux-naive generally, ok i do quite often, but here it's a bit have-your-cake-and-eat-it.

- "inferences" like the widespread assumption that having concern for the poverty, lack of security, statelessness, and refugee-style conditions of Palestine somehow goes hand in hand with being insufficiently friendly toward Israel or condoning terrorism

- "distractions" like rabbit-hole arguments about bad guys and tactics and politics that immediately vex things and steer people away from simple and (in my opinion) shouldn't-be-controversial statement that the conditions Palestinians are in are sad, unfortunate, and should not be morally tolerable to any of us over the long term

If being "knowledgeable" about the topic is a way of suddenly disappearing the fact that the conditions of Palestine are just plain flat-out Not A Good Thing, then perhaps some "faux" naivete is entirely in order, you know?

I have no doubt that someone will kinda prove my point by responding to that with "well what about the conditions of Israelis" or "well that's not Israel's fault" or any number of other things that are kinda separate from the basic point that the position/conditions of a Palestinian born right this second are sort of untenable and unconscionable.

It goes a BIT further than that, nabisco; I wasn't at the protest today in London but I believe its main purpose was to say that the current Israeli attacks on Gaza are wrong - not just that the "conditions" of Palestinians are reprehensible, especially in Gaza (which they obviously are). I agree that the current bombing of Gaza is wrong and I'm glad the pinefox, and the tens of thousands of others were there.

thats hella retarded. have fun on yr gayass march that has no point or perspective to offer except "like, not cool" that will really help with this morally untenable situation

I was gonna xpost something there but I've deleted it because what's the point; this Lamp post is appalling to me, but whatever

http://www.hurryupharry.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img_4121-300x225.jpg
http://www.hurryupharry.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img_4166-300x225.jpg
http://www.hurryupharry.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/nazi3-300x225.jpg

Thank god these guys are here to help.

Unlike Nabisco, who merely made his dismay and disapproval public and unmistakeable, but who has not rolled up his sleeves and done anything really useful Lamp has just entered into tense direct negotiations with the Israeli government aimed at alleviating this morally untenable situation. A joint declaration is expected soon.

Does anybody have any photos of gay asses to post?

If being "knowledgeable" about the topic is a way of suddenly disappearing the fact that the conditions of Palestine are just plain flat-out Not A Good Thing, then perhaps some "faux" naivete is entirely in order, you know?

I think this misses the point. I don't think anyone here (myself included) thinks the Palestinian situation is a "good" one. But all these things that you think distract from the clear truth aren't just distractions. A lot of them are really important issues that have a lot to do with the why. Obscuring the "why" doesn't give any insight or help to the Palestinians. It might make us feel morally righteous (WE WON'T STAND FOR THIS) but the truth is that any progress requires these "distractions." We need to know the history of the crisis, the current facts on the ground, the possible negotiations that could move things forward. I think one of the reasons left-wing protests of Israel aren't particularly successful is because they ignore all these things. I've seen it various times on this thread - that youtube video isn't actually Israeli's attacking Gaza, but who cares? Or 'who knows whether Hamas uses children as human shields or not?' As though these are just side points and it doesn't really matter what reality is. This is not unlike Americans who felt bad for the Georgians during the war last year - they don't actually know what South Ossetia is, or who lives there, or why Russia invaded Georgia. But they know it's really sad for the Georgians and they're in a bad situation and so BOO RUSSIA, RUSSIA SUCKS. But you kinda have to know something to get something done.

(And I'm not saying you have to be pro-Israel to been aware of the situation. But that some subtlety is required. Faux-naivety is pretty bullshit IMHO.)

Mordy, nabisco didn't say those things were distractions. He actually said something quite different. It's weird how you completely ignore what he says, and just argue against what suits you.

Although maybe he will come along and actually try to argue that we don't need to "know the history of the crisis"! Or that we don't need to know "the current facts on the ground" - or "the possible negotiations that could move things forward". But you know, I doubt it.

Israel may be able to ignore demonstrations in London with consummate ease, but that is not quite the point. The British government may take some notice of them in formning their own position, and the British position may present the Israeli government with a factor worth noticing. This same dynamic, the more it plays out in Europe, will have a cumulative effect. Israel exports a lot of stuff to Europe.

And it is better than doing nothing, imo. Sometimes you need to make a choice and take a stand, even if the details are murky and complex. (Somehow I doubt that one of the possible outcomes is Israel disappearing or suffering genocidal warfare.)

i agree w/ mordy and don't get nabisco's post. no-one protests about the unconscionable conditions in, ooh, i dunno, zimbabwe; this *is* about what's happening now and thus those ugly distractions creep in.

No Aimless you got to understand - the Palestinians are on the freaking VERGE of destroying Israeli society forever. Or do I have that the wrong way round. Well whatever.

Israel may be able to ignore demonstrations in London with consummate ease, but that is not quite the point. The British government may take some notice of them in formning their own position, and the British position may present the Israeli government with a factor worth noticing.

yeah we did a bang-up job stopping the invasion of iraq with these tactics.

no-one protests about the unconscionable conditions in, ooh, i dunno, zimbabwe

Yes they do, you gormless scat fancier.

DMSARP(sgsmb), the USA is less susceptible to international pressure than Israel. An equal effort directed toward Israel would have a much greater effect.

And you should not need to have a guarantee about the outcome to have a sufficiently good reason to make the effort. Moral actions should not always be about odds of success.

shouldn't really respond to that but no, you don't get tens of thousands on the streets about it, poindexter.

xpost

Maybe it has to do I dunno the millions and millions of dollars in weaponry and aid that the US and the UK have given Israel. Rather than Zimbabwe.

have you never walked down The Strand, NRQ?

this ended at the israeli embassy.

zimbabwe has an embassy here too.

yes louis, there is a vigil, as there is at the chinese embassy. doesn't get tens of thousands of people either.

xpost

DMSARP(sgsmb), if you demonstrated in the street about it, they'd be that much closer to achieving tens of thousands, wouldn't they?

I'm sure you are quite satisfied with your reasoning here, but I don't think you've thought about it long enough, yet -- or else your true arguments and conclusions are different from the rationalizations you are offering us.

lol i was just flexing mah pedantry, proceed

i think it's a bit dishonest to present this as just some random well-intentioned protest that the haters are trying to shit on rather than a package protest by a particular brand with some sinster axes to grind

Yes they do, you gormless scat fancier.

Indeed, of course they do. The lack of mass protest has to do with the fact that our governments are actually willing to criticize Zimbabwe

Also, what does Israel expect from leaflet dropping threatening an escalation other than a refugee crisis?

Spanish Civil War, anyone? Joining active demonstrations against the fascists during that war required you to join forces with Stalinists. Mass demonstrations aren't always neat or pretty. But they are a damn sight prettier than killing hundreds of children.

Hey at least the IDF is DOING something.

Mass demonstrations aren't always neat or pretty. But they are a damn sight prettier than killing hundreds of children.

oh for fuck's sake, are you really saying that? do my eyes deceive me? if you don't join the protest, you are (colluding in the) killing (of) hundreds of children?

Why yes. It's basically the same thing!

Of course Aimless would say that - that's just the kind of guy he is!

Nah, but he basically did the same thing he criticized someone else for like 2 posts ago.

are we ready to have this thread locked yet

i think we're very close to a solution of the crisis, hang on

are you really saying...

Did I really say that? I don't think so. Let me clarify.

What I had in mind is that, if the you are deterred from demonstrating against an abhorrent act by the thought that you may somehow lend support to a group whose actions you also have reservations about, then it is legitimate to consider where your greater reservations lie.

One the one hand you have a war going on right now that is killing many hundreds, including a very high proportion of non-combatants. One the other, you are concerned that your protest might possibly be seen as condoning rockets fired randomly into Israel - although this is not how the demonstration's purpose is framed. Just the presence of groups who may condone this seems troublesome.

So, do you wait until a pristine opportunity to march comes along and meanwhile do nothing, or risk the chance of sending a signal that may have a few political components you disagree with? It is a legitimate question, but silence also risks the chance of sending a wrong signal. Your choice.

Well put.

not wanting to be identified with certain messages at a protest where people are waving swastikas about seems perfectly reasonable to me

you are concerned that your protest might possibly be seen as condoning rockets fired randomly into Israel - although this is not how the demonstration's purpose is framed.

condoning more than this, and the demo *does* frame its purpose in explicitly pro-hamas terms, from the reports i've read. (it is organized by the SWP-ish StWC.) what you've written, especially the use of the word 'risk' in the final paragraph, does lead me to the cliche that it's more about the protesters than the plight of palestinians. (not to mention the fact that the demo will achieve exactly nothing -- about a million of use marched against UK involvement in the iraq war, as i said.)

xpost

Stop the War Coalition isn't even SWP-ish: Lindsey German was the then-editor of their magazine Socialist Review, and her effective second-in-command was John Rees, then of the SWP, now of Respect.

Although lol at this section from the SWP's wiki:

The SWP has been accused of being overly accommodating to the allegedly reactionary concerns of some practising Muslims; for example its anti-Zionist stance has been accused of being anti-semitic by Zionists

A pal of mine lives off Kensington High Street. He tells me his street's been smashed up, piles of debris and piss everywhere - plus loads of groups of masked guys chanting from 'down down israel', through 'death to israel' all the way to 'death to jews'. Also the local muslim-owned shops getting attacked for selling alcohol. He's a bit shocked at how intimidating it all is