2008 Primaries Thread 2: THE QUICKENING

I'm sure they are, akm. And as to the disconnect between public opinion on Iraq and McCain's position on it, that's been true in the GOP primaries, as well. McCain -- for whatever reason -- cleans up among people who want us out of Iraq the fastest. I don't think it's because people don't know his position. I think it's because people vote on vague impressions (sometimes including vague impressions of policy positions) and character, less so on policy positions.

I call bullshit on that Rolling Stone article - there's no way two soccer moms were discussing great war movies and sweetbread buffets.

That article is embarrassing.

http://www.hbo.com/thewire/img/castcrew/character_season05/character/scotttempleton.jpg

You're right that the article is analytically shoddy (lots of RS political coverage is), but that has nothing to do with the paragraphs I quoted.

no, I'm referring to the quotes being totally fabricated in order to advance the author's argument.

STRAWWOMEN

OK that was his best debate answer ever.

Which one was that?

Obama: "If you've watched Saturday Night Live for the last year, Hillary's a haughty ice-bitch."

I turned on WNYC when I got home last night, and they were replaying the debate; I lasted 15 seconds of a Rodham nonresponse. You folks are masochists.

daniel get a hold of yrself its one poll plz to look at million other polls that have obama up by double digits jeez cherry picking

You folks are masochists.

I gotta agree. (In that I'm honestly surprised so many of you are watching these debates still -- then again I've avoided them entirely, they strike me as being huge distractions at best.)

when you don't have cable,have blown thru your batch of Netflix films, and are single, it's a decent way of spending 45 minutes.

I'm all of those things (Netflix aside) but have resisted this conclusion.

it's a decent way of spending 45 minutes

that's true ... too bad they last for 90

I skipped the texas one but felt like this one was the last stand and I should watch ... there were a couple interesting bits but mostly I was annoyed at russert trying to manufacture news

For someone as dedicated to right-wing political blogs as yourself, Ned, I'm not sure that you're in a great position to be calling other people masochistic!

Hooray!

(I'll say that the big advantage with reading as opposed to watching/listening -- I don't have visuals and voices stuck in my head whether I want it or not.)

The debates I've seen have been 100,000,000,000,000,000% more informative than any coverage (and that includes the entirety of "liberal blogosphere")

that's true ... too bad they last for 90

That's when I return to Robert A. Caro.

Tracer, I haven't watched any presidential debates since 1992, so I doubt I'm going to be won over now.

this was the only debate that actually held my attention the whole time fwiw

yeah me too

hillary gave a pretty solid answer on the russia pop quiz question and the russ dawg still had to get in his smug knowitall schtick. "WELL if you had done yr homework like me you would know he is a 40-year-old law professor and amateur chess champion, his favorite color is green and he's a Leo"

the idea that listening to the candidates actually talk about their views -- rather than hearing them filtered through press/pundits -- is a distraction is tenuous at best

Sunny said that Russert looks like an Aussie.

I'm perfectly willing to concede that 90% of my interest is for the histrionics.

i do have to admit that I think Hillary is more impressive when she talks about foreign policy, Obama often comes across as a little hesitant. I mean I voted for him and support him but I think she talks that talk a lot better than he does. I think he needs to work on this a bit before the GE (duh obviously he will)

Russert went to my alma mater. /max

hillary is a better debater, period. the parts where she gets tripped up are where the facts just aren't on her side, ie any discussion of the Iraq war or the back and forth last night over NAFTA. other than that she's usually really solid. (except for the attempted SNL zing which was axtremely dumb.)

the idea that listening to the candidates actually talk about their views -- rather than hearing them filtered through press/pundits -- is a distraction is tenuous at best

Position papers, speeches, voting records -- even, if you like, debate transcripts -- these are things all readily available for research and review. Words as well as actions can be accessed very easily, especially now, and you'll forgive me if I prefer to do so that way, at my own pace and in my own preferred way, rather than televised debates.

AXTREME. extremely (xpost to myself)

aside from sounding like whining, does she think we switch medias for the general election? you have to live w/ these people. running against the media seems like a terrible strategy all around and I don't think most voters give a shit.

I realized last night that what I don't like about her is that she's too sarcastic and comes across as patronizing. maybe that's what everyone doesn't like about her, I dunno, but it took me until last night to realize this.

dont forget abt the plastered on smile! (srsly so strange)

I can see the debates being of some value (tho not face value) if I hadn't already made up my mind and voted in a primary, but I have.

there's an argument to be made over the importance of one's televised persona, but I am too lazy to make it.

There's an argument to be made for it, but I think it's safe to say that our present political system overemphasizes it.

I think a better argument to be made is that DEBATING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE JOB OF BEING PRESIDENT. Televised persona is infinitely more important to the "job" of being president than any kind of spirited mediated arguing and nitpicking.

Yeah, D5's putting it better than I could, and separating out the key point for me.

Oh and those grapes? I bet they were sour, anyway.

Amazing!

I think an even better argument is that presidential debates aren't real debates. They're just opportunities to land punchlines. OMG Hillary says she doesn't like NAFTA but before she said she wanted to marry it! A real debate might require candidates address what NAFTA is in depth and why it's important and place it in the larger context of free trade. Also not ask candidates about shit that presidents don't even have any control over, like whether illegal immigrants get drivers' licenses.

Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but it's obvious stuff like that that tends to get lost in political silly season.

I never thought I'd be saying this, but I actually found this recent series of debates to be relatively substantive. This will be the sixth presidential election I've voted in and I don't recall any debates in the prior 20 years approaching this level of nuance.

Not that the bar has been set very high.

I read that as "approaching this level of menace."

I think they're probably better than they were the last two elections, which were the only ones in my lifetime where I was old enough to pay good attention. But yes, the bar is low.

Obama's a menace sponge. McCain will vanish into his Black Hole.

the last two debates were great, altho partly because obama's best performances were in both of them - less 'uhhh's and more substantive.

i really enjoy watching these tho i have no illusions about 'what they mean' or whether they in some way impact the person's ability to be a president.

Bragging about not paying attention to this shit is kinda corny to me

"ho ho I don't even watch TELEVISION"

McCain will vanish into (Obama's) Black Hole.

Sounds like the beginnings of a 527 ad, to me.

general election kinda startin already huh?

By LIBBY QUAID, Associated Press Writer
7 minutes ago

TYLER, Texas - Republican presidential hopeful John McCain mocked Democrat Barack Obama on Wednesday for saying he would take action as president "if al-Qaida is forming a base in Iraq."
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"When you examine that statement, it's pretty remarkable," McCain told a crowd in Tyler, Texas.

"I have some news. Al-Qaida is in Iraq. It's called `al-Qaida in Iraq,'" McCain said, drawing laughter at Obama's expense.

Obama quickly answered back, telling a rally at Ohio State University in Columbus, "I do know that al-Qaida is in Iraq."

"So I have some news for John McCain," he added, saying there was no al-Qaida presence in Iraq until President Bush invaded the country.

Noting that McCain likes to tell audiences that he'd follow Osama bin Laden to the "gates of hell" to catch him, Obama taunted: "All he (McCain) has done is to follow George Bush into a misguided war in Iraq."

This will be the ultimate *zing!* election, won't it?

Noting that McCain likes to tell audiences that he'd follow Osama bin Laden to the "gates of hell" to catch him, Obama taunted: "All he (McCain) has done is to follow George Bush into a misguided war in Iraq."

NICE