jenny mccarthy wants your kid to get measles: autism, vaccines, and stupid idiots

Josh, I dont know. I havent been studying this shit for years like she has. My older brother is schizophrenic and was fine until he reached 17 and then lost his shit. Who knows why. But it was there all along. dormant. I dont think its unbelievable.

I mean ruling genetics out is ridiculous

Sure, events or aging or a number of things could be what causes something like that to show up. I don't know that there has to necessarily be a "trigger" per se, but there's definitely some instances where there's a strong correlation.

Autistic spectrum signifiers showing up in kids post-vaccination is kind of a red herring, because from what I have read, a lot of those things generally show up around that age, anyway.

Something can be dormant for years or forever. And often what lies dormant is triggered. What I'm saying - and this is the crux of the vaccine debate - is that there is no way to know whether it's getting the vaccine at age two that triggered it, or jut turning two. Genetics plays a role, but there's very little in genetics that's totally predetermined. It's just a dance of dominant and recessive genes. It's totally possible that a vaccine can "trigger" something. It's just really impossible to prove that.

its not about whats in the 2 y/o injections themselves. its about the amount of them in short period of time could trigger dormant agressive ASD. Its kind of trauma for any kid to get stabbed that many time with diseases. SHe is pro vaccination. Dont mistake that. Her son has all his vaccinations. triggers are for real. read any med journal.

so maybe better said - trauma can trigger dormant diseases/disorders

cf weed/schizophrenia

trigger is plausible, but v difficult to demonstrate.

David Letterman had shingles in his eye, and iirc he said it was the worst pain imaginable, and he wouldn't wish it on his worst enemy. (yeah, yeah, "worst" twice, I'm leaving it)

wow i didn't even know there was a chicken pox vaccine!!! i had cp but only got a v v mild dose - i knew someone in hs who got it so bad it was inside her throat

so maybe better said - trauma can trigger dormant diseases/disorders

― giant snake birthday cake large fries chocolate shake (sunny successor), Friday, March 2, 2012 9:23 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

trigger is plausible, but v difficult to demonstrate.

― catbus otm (gbx), Friday, March 2, 2012 10:02 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark

gbx otm. that's the thing, all sorts of things can trigger all sorts of things in a hazy, "nothing's impossible" sort of way, but unless you can defensibly demonstrate that stimulus a really is triggering condition b, then it's irresponsible to suggest that there's any relationship between the two.

was sort of thinking maybe I should send the other half to get the chicken pox vaccine since he doesn't remember whether he had it in childhood or not, but over here the NHS only offers it to people who live or work with people w/compromised immune systems

my sister had shingles when she was 3 years old, it was insane

I got retested for chicken pox vaccine before getting pregnant because ILX Nathalie freaked me the fuck out when she got it in her first trimester. Turns out I did get the vaccine when my cousin came down with it when i was 6 or 7. Doc claims it lasts forever and TBF ive never had ye olde cp.

r u sure? wiki claims the vaccine was introduced in japan/korea in '88, usa in '95, no word on oz

so maybe better said - trauma can trigger dormant diseases/disorders

― giant snake birthday cake large fries chocolate shake (sunny successor), Friday, March 2, 2012 9:23 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

trigger is plausible, but v difficult to demonstrate.

― catbus otm (gbx), Friday, March 2, 2012 10:02 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark

gbx otm. that's the thing, all sorts of things can trigger all sorts of things in a hazy, "nothing's impossible" sort of way, but unless you can defensibly demonstrate that stimulus a really is triggering condition b, then it's irresponsible to suggest that there's any relationship between the two.

― Totes le Héros (contenderizer), Friday, March 2, 2012 4:08 PM (3 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i absolutely agree with both of you. My friend I referenced studies, works and lives with autistic children so im pretty hesitant to doubt her opinion off the bat. She also thinks jenny mcwhatever is a crazy fuck who is responsible for riddling our population with fatal pediatric diseases/disorders. We do joking give JMAC props for being the only person in the world to cure a child of autism.

Back to triggers. Totally hard to pin down but I do believe the biology/genetics have to be there in the first place though. This is an opinion ive had from a very young age (older half brother and his mother both schizophrenics) and Ive seen little evidence to sway my beliefs on this one. Do I believe vaccines 'give' children ASD. No fucking way.

i had no idea there was a chicken pox vac till this thread

i dont have kids tho fyi

pretty sure youre not seahorse either gradski so its cool.

mookie my cousin was staying with us over summer vacation and suddenly broke out. my mom grabbed all 4 kids and hauled as to the docs. On the docs advice my bro, other cousin and i all got vaccinated that day.

i had no idea there was a chicken pox vac till this thread

me either. i had it when i was nine -- in the summer, of course. one of my eyes was swollen shut.

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?showall=true&bookmarkedmessageid=717242&boardid=77&threadid=90

thank u

http://i26.tinypic.com/2udyu5e.jpg

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/04/donald_trump_versus_vaccination.php

oh great

Do you think any vaccine deniers will see this and think, "Wait, that hideous bozo who ran for president on the birther ticket agrees that vaccines cause autism? Maybe I should rethink my stance…"

Because I bet they won't do that.

they will think "even an idiot like Donald Trump can see that vaccines cause autism"

Confirmation bias and motivated reasoning, the story of this thread. And over-media-saturated modernity, come to think of it.

http://jennymccarthybodycount.com

whoa

http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Home.html

― Event Horizon (Nicole), Wednesday, 8 April 2009 13:16 (3 years ago) Bookmark

oh.

Number of parents who have cured their child's autism: 1

w/r/t staggered immunization schedules

so this:

This is the schedule:
2 months: DTaP, Rotavirus
3 months*: Pc, HIB
4 months: DTaP, Rotavirus
5 months*: Pc, HIB
6 months: DTaP, Rotavirus
7 months*: Pc, HIB
9 months: Polio (IPV)
12 months: Mumps, Polio (IPV) (See 3rd UPDATE)
15 months: Pc, HIB
18 months: DTaP, Chickenpox
2 years: Rubella, Polio (IPV) (See 3rd UPDATE)
2 1/2 years*: Hep B, Hep A (start Hep B at birth if any close relatives or caregivers have Hep B)
3 years: Hep B, Measles (See 3rd UPDATE)
3 1/2 years*: Hep B, Hep A
4 years: DTaP, Polio (IPV)
5 years: MMR
6 years: Chickenpox
12 years: Tdap, HPV
12 years, 2 months*: HPV
13 years: HPV, Meningococcal (once Meningococcal vaccine is approved for age 2, Dr. Sears will move it there and delay Hep B by 6 months)

if i can blithely simplify the arguments for and against, then i'll just take the next two bits of commentary

*t: They are split up and spaced out to lessen adverse reactions and if there is one you have a better idea of which vaccine caused it.

asf: B-b-but that is the Sears schedule! The same schedule that doesn't result in HepB vac until 2.5 and the first measles shots until 3?!?

(BLOVIATING BELOW, BE WARNED)

*t:

spacing out vaccines really shouldn't lessen adverse reactions. "adverse reactions" are often thought to be the product of Too Much Stuff In The Kid's Body, but they're really not. as kate pointed out, any given babe's antigenic load (ie - all the stuff they eat and inhale and put in their stupid lil mouths and rubs in their cute lil eyes and w/e) is enormous when compared to the trifling amount of antigen introduced by one, or several, vaccines.

i'll gloss the difference between live/killed (nb no one ever says "dead," prob because ppl would get even more skeeved by vaccines).

which is to say, you're not more likely to spike a fever or get a rash or, god forbid, get truly ill from six vaccines than you are from one. the immunological processes that make vaccines work are operating independently from one another (as far as we know); there are no good guys and bad guys, there are simply guys that aren't supposed to be here in the blood. rotavirus is not conspiring with varicella, and the cops tracking them down work for different agencies.

i am exposed to horrible viruses all day e'ryday, popping the remains of one into my arm isn't ~necessarily~ going to throw the ecosystem out of whack. and real-deal trials have shown this to be true: adverse reactions to vaccine happen, sometimes, and most (like MOST) of the time they are pretty benign. kid gets a fever and a decorative rash, cries a lot, you don't sleep, but the world still spins on its axis.

all of which is to say (and i hope i was not condescending or anything): a bunch of vaccines at the same time really isn't, in any real-deal clinical sense, more likely to give a life- or function-threatening reaction than a vaccine given in isolation.

what an extended series of vaccines will, guaranteed, result in, is a) more trips to the doctor, and b) more pokes in a kiddo. which they hate.

as for isolating which vaccine caused the reaction. i get that a parent would want to know the name and address of the offender that made their kid upset and uncomfortable for a few days, but to science and the world at large, it straight up doesn't matter in the least. no vaccine gets introduced to the schedule without going through controlled trials (ie - it gets vetted in isolation), so uncovering the fact that it was the _____ that gave yr baby problems isn't all that useful. most of all to you. "well i guess i'll never give my baby that vaccination again!" don't worry, you won't have to, it's a vaccine. even if it happens to be a vaccine that's in a series, a mild episode of discomfort is small potatoes. ESP when the kid's older. a 5mo old with a bad cold can be heartbreaking; a 5yo with a cold is a kid with a cold. "but what if my kid gets a truly awful reaction, i need to know what did it!" in that case, the problem is larger than, and in many respects has nothing to do with, the identity of the vaccine in question.

NOW: no one should feel like an asshole or a bad parent or bad citizen or bad whatever for staggering, at least imho, but i'll get to that

Hated needles so much as a kid. That schedule would have given me a nervous breakdown.

from a link that asf posted:

Children whose parents choose this schedule will not be receiving the influenza vaccine until 5 years of age (which is unfortunate, given that tens of thousands of children <4 years of age are hospitalized with complications resulting from influenza every year), will not be receiving the hepatitis B vaccine until 2.5 years of age, will not be receiving measles vaccine until 3 years of age, and, to space out vaccines so that children do not receive >2 shots at 1 visit, will be visiting the doctor for vaccines at 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, and 24 months and 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4, 5, and 6 years of age. Increasing the number of vaccines, the number of office visits, and the ages at which vaccines are administered will likely decrease immunization rates. In addition to the logistic problem of requiring so many office visits, Sears' recommendation might have another negative consequence; recent outbreaks of measles showed that several children acquired the disease while waiting in their pediatricians' offices.7

this is mostly otm. not having a hepB vaccine is, for real, not a big deal. hepB is transmitted overwhelmingly by sexual intercourse and needles. do babies get it sometimes? sure. would vaccines have prevented those transmissions? not likely.

most of the problems that the AAP raises have less to do with, like, biology, and more to do with the social acceptance of vaccination, and in that regard they are basically right (nb i skimmed).

anyway

asf:

At the heart of the problem with Sears' schedules is the fact that, at the very least, they will increase the time during which children are susceptible to vaccine-preventable diseases. If more parents insist on Sears' vaccine schedules, then fewer children will be protected, with the inevitable consequence of continued or worsening outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases. In an effort to protect children from harm, Sears' book will likely put more in harm's way.

"increase the time during which children are susceptible..." This is the crux. Most of the vaccines given earliest in life are the most savage. Other stuff, way at the end of the spectrum, like HPV, are only relevant once you're introduced into that particular microbes milieu---would it be wise to vaccinate against HPV at a very young age? Maybe. Would it have a significant impact on the rates of cervical cancer. No. Not at this point at least. cf Hep B---most people get Hep B from sex and drug use. this is actually true. again, will early vaccination, widespread, make a dent in the incidence of hep B? Probs, in the long run. Is not getting your hep b vaccine until 3yo or, in my case 27yo, putting you at an increased risk of getting hep b? no, not really.

it's all about risk windows: most people won't get the diseases we vaccinate against anyway. thanks, largely, to vaccination and herd immunity. does that mean they should not get vaccinated? of course not. does that mean they should vaccinate early and aggressively? yeah, for those illnesses that are more furious in the young. nb some vaccines actually improve ~lifelong~ immunity more significantly when given later. so, you have to weigh the risks of "will my kid get this soon, or now" and "will they get it later?"

anyway, tl;dr. dr sears' schedule does nothing to improve the lives of babies, does little to ACTUALLY harm the health of said babies and the babydom at large, and does much to undermine vaccination as a practice and line the pockets of people like dr sears.

I have to say, as a kid of early 70s stock, the massive scale of immunsation schedules these days really is surprising, if nothing else. In my day you just copped a case of mumps or chickenpox on purpose to get over it, not that I'm saying thats at all a good approach though, heh.

gbx you said something else in passing that caught my eye:
"adverse reactions" are often thought to be the product of Too Much Stuff In The Kid's Body, but they're really not. as kate pointed out, any given babe's antigenic load (ie - all the stuff they eat and inhale and put in their stupid lil mouths and rubs in their cute lil eyes and w/e)

I cant help but wonder if these days a lot of helicopter parents DONT let their kids do any of that, keep them rigorously clean, swabbed in triclosan, out of the outdoors, paranoid about germs, not feeding them peanuts, etc etc, and this is making things worse? I mean IANAD so I dunno, but it does make me wonder.

i should qualify this:

"would it be wise to vaccinate against HPV at a very young age? Maybe. Would it have a significant impact on the rates of cervical cancer. No. Not at this point at least."

it really would be a great idea if everyone get an HPV vaccine. and it would have a significant impact, en masse, against the rate of cervical cancer. but am i going to lean real hard on the parent of like a 9yo who is uncomfortable with it, because they think that an HPV vaccine is a license for free love? nah. not worth it. buying the idea that vaccinating ~late~ is somehow equivalent to not vaccinating at all betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how disease spreads, and works.

xps

"I cant help but wonder if these days a lot of helicopter parents DONT let their kids do any of that, keep them rigorously clean, swabbed in triclosan, out of the outdoors, paranoid about germs, not feeding them peanuts, etc etc, and this is making things worse?"

google "hygiene hypothesis"

i still haven't gotten the hpv vaccine. when it came out i was like 23 i think and then i procrastinated w/ going to the dr and now i just feel like it's probably too late. am i gonna die/

ooh thanks gbx, some interesting reading there.

I cant help but wonder if these days a lot of helicopter parents DONT let their kids do any of that, keep them rigorously clean, swabbed in triclosan, out of the outdoors, paranoid about germs, not feeding them peanuts, etc etc, and this is making things worse? I mean IANAD so I dunno, but it does make me wonder.

That is one prevalent theory behind the rise of food allergies. Though there is also a rise of Celiacs and type 1 diabetes, and I'm not sure anyone has a theory behing that.

ask yr cervix what's up

nb another misconception about vaccines is that you WILL get the disease if you are not vaccinated. any lady that has unprotected sex (of the STD variety, not the baby-catching kind) has likely been exposed to HPV. and has maybe generated immunity all on her lonesome. see also most other vaccine-preventable diseases, for everyone.

the main thing is that these diseases are ~preventable~. you do not have to risk an exposure that is quantifiably more dangerous than vaccine, we have the technology. kids getting measles in the waiting room isn't galling "merely" because some kids got really sick, its because that simply does not need to happen anymore, it's not a fact of life.

cf chickenpox. at 31, i'm probably in the last or second to last cohort of people that had to get the chickenpox to be immune to the chickenpox, and, as a result, marginally increase my chances of shingles later in life. is chickenpox a scourge on children? no, not really. it sucks, but the number of kids with seriously adverse outcomes is low (iirc). are those outcomes devastating for the people that live with them? yeah. would it be wise to tamp out the possibility of not-just-itchy outcomes by vaccinating? sure, plus then i don't have to get shingles (nb - i need to check my work on that). are people that miss or actively avoid a chickenpox vaccine horrible scum? of course not, who cares.

polio is a different story. Hib is a different story. Measles, rubella, etc. (rubella, btw, is a pretty trivial infection in an actual child---it can be very serious for a fetus, though, so immunizing people doesn't protect children, it protects pregnant mothers)

Didn't they or haven't they determined that the chickenpox vaccine does not convey reliable immunity?

q: why don't guys get HPV vaccine?

there are std and baby-catching varieties of sex? idk i'm not that worried about it. we're all gonna get cancer and i don't like going to the dr sorry

w/r/t celiac and DM1 dxs

shooting from the hip here (as i have been), but i'd hazard that auto-immune disorders are on the rise largely from a diagnostic bias---as has been made abundantly clear itt and in the larger vax discourse, our understanding of the immune system is very much a work in progress. i'm not sure that people are getting rheumatoid arthritis or lupus or w/e more frequently, but i am certain that we are waaaaaay better at finding biochemical markers for those illnesses than we were even a few decades ago. i mean, auto-immune disorders, like celiacs and maybe DM1, are notoriously vague in the clinical sense (ok not diabetes). it's p much an old saw that SLE is "the great pretender," the differential is immense when one considers symptoms.

which, to me, is why vaccine was one of the most serendipitous discoveries ever made. we figured out that if you spent a lot of time around a bad thing, you were less susceptible to that bad thing. give other people a really smart bit of the bad thing, and maybe they won't get it full-strength as often. no one knew what a fucking antibody was.

My dad always said that the two greatest advents of modern medicine were vaccines and indoor plumbing.

Didn't they or haven't they determined that the chickenpox vaccine does not convey reliable immunity?

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, June 28, 2012 9:06 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

dunno---i'll look into it. the only people i've been giving zostavax have been olds, at risk of shingles (ie - never had chickenpox at an young age, if they get it now then its g-d shingles owwwwwww). which is another benefit of herd immunity: less kids get chickenpox, less old people that somehow bafflingly never had it end up with shingles.

remy: boys should get the HPV vaccine. p sure it hasn't been approved for boys yet (...clinical trials, ladies and gentlemen), but i likely will be. given that stupid boys are the actual vectors, vaccinating them would be more efficacious imo.

unsafe sex: u can catch a std in an otherwise 'safe-sex' setting at least as far as babies are concerned.