the USA, Israel, and national interest

In fact, I would argue that if these actions aren't actions of depravity, then there are no depraved actions in the world.

OK good to know.

I do believe that the people who ... attack innocent civilians are fundamentally depraved.

IE the fucking IDF.

No?

Maybe where we disagree, Tracer, is I believe there are some actions that are inexcusable no matter what the circumstances. Maybe you think someone's environment can possibly justify certain behaviors? I mean, this isn't someone mugging a dude for his wallet because he can't afford his rent. This is a guy telling his kid (or his nephew, maybe) to stand in front of the antiaircraft defense so that if Israel strikes, he'll be able to put his kid's picture in the newspaper as an example of Israeli brutality.

If someone in the IDF attacks and kills a civilian with intentionality, then yes. That is also depravity. No question.

So if Hamas are depraved subhuman animals, what does that make the people who voted for them?

I didn't use the words subhuman or animals. I just used the word depravity. Lots of human beings do depraved things. We don't excuse them tho. Madoff is depraved - he is still human.

And the people who voted for them wanted certain social services that it looked like Hamas could provide over Fatah...

Look, are you guys fucking serious?

So if Hamas are depraved subhuman animals, what does that make the people who voted for them?

It makes them some people who voted for some depraved motherfuckers.

I do believe that the people who ... attack innocent civilians are fundamentally depraved.

IE a lot of people on both sides

And if a politician orders an attack, in the full knowledge that hundreds of civilians and children will be slaughtered? Or perhaps orders attacks only on Shia civilians, not Sunni or Christians, as in Lebanon in 2006. Is this depraved?

I'm not sure throwing words like depravity or evil around helps, however much I may feel they apply.

yes

Why do you keep conflating between someone ordering a military maneuver that may result in civilian casualties, and someone ordering an attack on civilian casualties? They are self-evidently different. XP

The former bothers me, but I understand it and can relate to it. The latter is disturbed and depraved and fucking evil.

(And if it makes you feel better, I'm using Hannah Arendt's "evil," not some Biblical definition.)

They are not different, because there is no "may".

Ordering an attack that WILL 100% DEFINITELY NO SHADOW OF A DOUBT result in hundreds of civilian deaths IS an attack on civilians.

If you can't see that, I don't know what to say.

I guess that pretty much includes all wars ever?

are you trying to argue that war is bad?

It's moral cowardice to say anything else. Either it is right to kill those civilians because you believe in your cause, or its not.

Hiding behind "regrettable" civilian deaths, as if they were somehow an accident is just deceitful.

I guess that pretty much includes all wars ever?

Not really

Well, sorry, I don't see it that way. I think sometimes bad things result from necessary actions. I don't think all of our actions can be pure of negative consequences, and often we just need to hedge them to get the most positive consequences. This isn't some Kantian ideology, I understand, but it's what I believe. I wish the other way worked, but I don't think it's pragmatic. I don't think the Allies could have won WW2 without some civilians dying. You should obviously try to limit these deaths to a minimum and take as many precautions as possible.

But certainly if you believe IDF officers ordering attacks that result in civilians dying is depraved, then you agree with me that Hamas is depraved?

I mean, a fortiori.

no Mordy, only one side is allowed to be bad. we need good guys in this movie.

Depraved is not a word I throw about much

spost to Mordy

OK, that's a defensible position, but you are saying we will kill x amount of people for y aim, and its worth it. Hamas are saying we will kill x amount of people for y aim (although x is a very small number here) and its worth it.

To pretend these are somehow morally different is infantile.

So you get down to what are the aims, and how effective are all these deaths in acieving them.

Then you start weeping at the horror of it all.

I said before that I don't think it helps throwing words like depraved around, but do I think Hamas's actions are wrong? Yes. Do I think Israel's actions are wrong? Yes.

There are no good guys.

But that's not equivalent. Israel doesn't say we will kill x amount of people for y aim. Ie: They never say, "We need to kill 20 random people to instill fear in the Gaza population." Ideally, they wouldn't kill anyone, and they take precautions (maybe not enough) to not kill civilians. Hamas says "We will kill 20 random people to instill fear in the S'derot population."

Hamas are saying we will kill x amount of people for y aim (although x is a very small number here)

I agree with your overall sentiment, but I'm pretty sure that the "although x is a very small number here" isn't their reason for killing people.

There is a difference between direct, intended action and indirect, unintended action. Ie: Different criminal penalties for accidental manslaughter or reckless manslaughter or murder.

This could get circular, but it's not an accident if you KNOW it's going to happen. That is a direct predictable consequence of ones actions.

Mordy I don't consider it my position to excuse or not excuse anyone's actions.

I was just trying to figure out what unbelievable mindset one would have get oneself into in order to think that human shields are a good idea, or that blowing oneself up is the best possible course of action to take. Have you ever thought about that?

I have. I've also wondered what it would take to get someone to gas a bunch of innocents and then burn their bodies in furnaces. I've found Arendt's explanation the easiest to understand; their unconsciousness and thoughtlessness has lead to depravity. The banality of evil. I don't think we need to excuse it, though.

And to Jamie; Voluntary manslaughter isn't an accident either. It's still distinguishable from murder.

DING DING DING DING GODWIN'S LAW ACHIEVED

Uh, that's not Godwin's Law.

Oh, it is (looking it up). Still, nothing wrong with that. But for Nazi, you can substitute any behavior that obviously beyond the parity of human ethics.

What would it take for the Spanish Crown to burn people at the stake for not converting to Catholicism? I used Nazis because that is who Arendt was writing about.

I was just trying to figure out what unbelievable mindset one would have get oneself into in order to think that human shields are a good idea, or that blowing oneself up is the best possible course of action to take. Have you ever thought about that?

since when is religious extremism an unbelievable mindset?

Mordy, have you not spotted a teeny little power imbalance between, say, the Catholic Church (or Nazism) and Hamas? Or do you think that's irrelevant when discussing military desperation?

iatee, many Israelis are religious extremists too, but they don't blow themselves up. Have you ever wondered why?

Tracer, I think (and this /is/ Kantian influenced) that some actions are depraved no matter what the extenuating circumstances. It's never cool to intentionally, consciously, and willfully kill a child. No matter what the circumstances. Ever.

cause they realize that tanks and bombs are more efficient?

Because their religious beliefs say that suicide under any circumstances is a sin? And Muslim doctrine does not say the same?

Muslims invented martyrdom, that's a fact

Mind you, I don't think Jewish religious extremists or Christian extremists are good and Muslim extremists are bad. Fuck all religious extremists. (Again, no matter the circumstances.)

I didn't say they invented it? Wtf dude?

I didn't say you said it

It's never cool to intentionally, consciously, and willfully kill a child. No matter what the circumstances. Ever.

Do you think I'm arguing this??

Yes, I think you're trying to excuse Hamas murder of children (either Israeli children, or their own children by negligence) by citing their circumstances and desperation.