2012 republican presidential nominee III: can romney get santorum out of his hair?

no -- contraception IS evil to these people!

of course, but what's really at stake is religious freedom from federal compulsion. of course catholic authorities think that contraception is evil, but that objection only becomes politically powerful when the fed tries to get them to pay for it.

don't buy this at all. the idea that religious institutions can hold and express a set of "core values" seems to be essential to the concept of religious institutions held by many if not most religious americans.

― Little GTFO (contenderizer), Friday, February 10, 2012 3:08 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the point, in terms of birth control, is how a set of core values are instantiated. requiring/prohibiting and paying for/refusing to pay for aren't exactly the same thing.

the catholic church hires people of all beliefs to work in its hospitals and charities and universities. the church considers birth control to be sinful.

does it prevent its employees from using birth control? no, it wouldn't dare, and couldn't manage it anyway. it can't even prevent its adherents from using them, as everyone knows. it just refuses to pay for it for its employees, since health care is tied to employment in this country. as a matter of conscience this is kind of pissy if you think about it.

now, if required to cover it, what will change for the church? a small but non-negligibly-more amount of money is going into its insurance plans, sure. but will anyone be forced to take birth control? boy i hope so! lol j/k. no, of course not. will anyone's behavior even change? nope!

the government is not "forcing" anyone to partake in something, any more than the church is "forcing" anyone not to partake in that thing now.

i mean, why not require all its employees to say the rosary or something? how would the logic be any different?

again my line of argt is not really with anyone here

religious institutions are exempt from federal meddling in their freedom to act in accordance with their values, THEREFORE the federal gov't shouldn't force them do certain things - such as hand out cherry-flavored condoms

re alfred and my xpost

We already let churches off the hook for any and all taxes. Apparently this just emboldens them. This is just Yet Another Version of the Argument that Money Equals Reality (YAVOTATMER).

No observant catholic is being forced to commit a single action that is against catholic dogma or doctrine. Every observant catholic is allowed to follow the dictates of their church. Unless, of course, giving money to someone else who then gives it to someone else who then spends it to damn their souls to hell, against your strongly-worded advice, is somehow considered a mortal sin. Which, of course, it isn't, no matter how you stretch church dogma.

Every day, people of all religions who live in a heterogeneous society with a secular goverment have to work around conflicts with their beliefs. These things usually blow up when they touch upon sexuality. This issue has more to do with fucking than it has to do with religious liberty. Same as it is with gay marriage and a host of other issues.

requiring/prohibiting and paying for/refusing to pay for aren't exactly the same thing.

that's a good point, but i don't think that this argument will be won on subtlety. honestly, i imagine that "contraception" is seen as a sort of trojan horse in the eyes of many religious americans. IF the fed can force churches to pay for condoms and the morning-after pill, THEN the fed can force churches to pay for abortions. and that idea, i imagine, is anathema to a huge and very vocal group of americans. with that bomb on the table, the subtleties of requiring/prohibiting vs paying for/refusing recede from view.

while we're whining about the church, i'm fully aware that the catholic hierarchy is concerned with things beyond other people's baby-making.

there's a relatively new archbishop here in st paul, mn, after the boomer-era guy died. the new dude can be fairly called a ratzingerite, very bright, very learned, very aggressive, very hard-line. there have been notable controversies:

an inner-city church and its priest were threatened in language approaching excommunication for failing to be 100% zealously in favor of an anti-gay-marriage amendment in the works here.

much more locally, a few years ago, a local catholic college, (upon whose board of regents the archbishop sits) suddenly prevented a beloved and well-respected prof from bringing her unmarried partner (also an academic) along on an overseas study program. this had gone on without incident for years. well, the administration. "refused to pay for dual lodgings" and also refused to allow them to stay in the same room with tender students present. the woman quit.

but we're kind of far away from the primaries now aren't we.

sometimes you'd almost like that to be what happens - like ideally, the catholic institutions could do what they wanted, and people wouldn't work for them, and so they'd realize that and change their mind. but w/ something like the academic job market - they can probably dictate terms.

Love that Mark Block quote from the interview upthread:

"I'm surprised to see you smoking!" I said.

"The cigarette is smoking," he said. "I'm just here."

sometimes you'd almost like that to be what happens - like ideally, the catholic institutions could do what they wanted, and people wouldn't work for them, and so they'd realize that and change their mind.

Yes, this. Or to be served BY them, which unfortunately is also not the case with hospitals.

(ok i know this is way o/t now but the university i was talking about just made the news again here

)

i imagine that "contraception" is seen as a sort of trojan horse

lol

^^^ my contribution

A Trojan horse of a different color

lol me

Useful bits for this week:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/02/10/their-bluff-has-been-called-will-the-bishops-know-when-to-fold-em/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/02/10/old-men-pretending-to-be-newly-upset-at-old-news/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/02/09/bishops-and-burkhas-and-buggies/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/02/08/bishops-vs-health-care-for-women-contd/

The awkward elements of Mitt Romney’s speech at CPAC Friday began even before the GOP frontrunner opened his mouth.

Like all the high-profile speakers before him, Romney delivered his address from the CPAC main stage at a Marriot hotel in Washington, DC. That means he stood behind a pair of teleprompters and in front of a pair of fake Grecian columns.

Just the other night, when he was giving his address amid the defeats in Missouri, Minnesota and Colorado, Romney took a shot at the man he’s trying to oust from the White House for - well - using teleprompters and standing in front of fake columns. Here’s part of the transcript from Romney’s Colorado speech on February 7):

Three years ago, Barack Obama came to Colorado to accept his Party’s nomination. He rented out a huge stadium. He hauled in some Styrofoam Greek columns and two giant screens to set the mood. On that big stage in Denver, he made some even bigger promises.

Phase IV of Newt's master plan: unleash Callista.

has anyone read any catholic defenses of the view that covering contraception benefits is 'subsidizing' (condoning, etc.) something even though the same thing being done out of individual employee pay is somehow not? i keep waiting for complicated talk about 'intention' and action/inaction/knowledge/ignorance to come up.

CPAC represent!

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/426123_10150581338009197_19182454196_8606988_969408229_n.jpg

Chuck Norris and Lord Vigo together at last!

beautiful

http://www.salon.com/2012/02/09/cpac_welcomes_white_nationalists/singleton/

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/426123_10150581338009197_19182454196_8606988_969408229_n.jpg

wow, really looking forward to that avengers movie.

have we talked about this somewhere?

http://tyrannyoftradition.com/2012/02/10/rick-santorum-declares-war-on-heavy-metal/

“If you listen to the radio today, many of these brand new, so-called heavy metal music bands like Black Sabbath, Venom, The WASP and Iron Maiden use satanic imagery to corrupt the minds of young people,” announced Santorum at a 10,000 dollar a plate sock-hop in Valdosta, Georgia on Thursday.

oh, that's satire. pardon me.

Just saw one of Paul's senior advisors on Maddow and he says they probably have the most delegates so far using some sort of weird "sticking around and getting a delegate despite how the voting went down" strategy. Anybody understand this and could it be true?

melo is wearing a bowtie and has a decorative pair of glasses hanging from his jacket pocket

Read this.

xpost

Unstable Breitbart is unstable. Who would've guessed?

ha hes such a classic 'whats wrong w/that guy'

that guy is either going to have a conversion, kill himself, or end up walking into a government building with a shotgun.

he does an amazing job yelling in a tone perfect calibrated to make you want to crush him with a tree, though.

reminiscent of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLQ_Qh8INg

haha exactly

lol protester reaction 'that was so awesome!'

this is a great example about how finding a good chant can diffuse tension and sublimate desires to just punch assholes in the face. i wanted to reach into my computer screen and bitch slap and once the chanting got started i felt, "well, yeah, that'll do."

I'm late together party here but that breitbart vid is the best thing.

BEHAAAAAAAAAAAAAVE

In the midst of chaos, recriminations, and self-doubt, guess who gives the keynote at CPAC today? Better yet, it's her birthday.

http://www.ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/cleopatra-03292011.jpg

I'm glad I've got films to go to this afternoon, otherwise I'm sure I'd end up watching this all day:

http://cpac2012.conservative.org/

Dinesh D'Souza was just on talking about some article Obama's father wrote in 1965, and anti-colonialism, and 100% taxation, and William Ayers, and the whole nine yards. Like John McGiver says in Breakfast at Tiffany's, it gives one a feeling of solidarity, almost of continuity with the past, that sort of thing.

perfect storm http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/02/professional-pick-up-artist-teaches-cpac-crowd-how-to-run-game.php

John Ziegler is of course a case but he seems to be revelling in his new role of "fuck all y'all"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-ziegler/cpac-2012_b_1261528.html

That white nationalists thing was pretty disgusting.

David Keene, president of the NRA, is on there right now to introduce John Bolton--who, Keene points out, used to work for him when Keene worked for...vice-president Agnew! Wow.

quoting Bfast@Tiffanys the Sanitized Film is bad enough, but slandering Liz Taylor? get some help, clemenza.

Because you're a Dr., I will take this under advisement.

Yeah, no, sorry, screw John Ziegler forever.

http://johnziegler.com/editorials_details.asp?editorial=165

here the aforementioned PPP poll:
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2012/02/santorum-surges-into-the-lead.html

38% to 23%

'Only 48% of voters say they're solidly committed to their current candidate choice, while 52% say they're open to changing their minds.' this far into the game is pretty amazing