when Haydon/Firth sez "there's a boy as well" near the end it didn't even get through
― Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 26 January 2012 21:53 (twelve years ago) link
are you talking about haydon and prideaux? thats pretty vague in the novel
― max, Thursday, 26 January 2012 21:55 (twelve years ago) link
I would think that that look they exchanged at the Christmas party conveyed enough about their relationship.
― Nicole, Thursday, 26 January 2012 21:56 (twelve years ago) link
iirc the only hints in the novel are a few dropped asides about how BH and JP were "thick as thieves" or whatever
― max, Thursday, 26 January 2012 21:58 (twelve years ago) link
le Carre is coy about homosexuality in the novel, considering what we know about the real life prototypes of the characters. but at the same time that public school blurring between deep friendship and admiration and sexual love seems like a true and useful ambiguity
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 26 January 2012 21:58 (twelve years ago) link
haydon's bisexuality is made explicit, so i think youre definitely supposed to wonder if the two were lovers
― max, Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:03 (twelve years ago) link
i know what you mean nv about the "smartboy film" thing, but i think TTSS managed to be both ambiguous as well as having a tightly wound plot that does merit a bit of thought afterwards. it felt a bit like you end up assuming some of it rather than being beaten over the head with it.
― When a German communicates, you listen (LocalGarda), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:10 (twelve years ago) link
some of the shifts are a little more elliptical than others. the setup of the final exposure/confrontation was pretty opaque to me. and i didn't get smiley's arrival at the boys' school -- tho i guess that information is gleaned from the files stolen by guillam.
― Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:13 (twelve years ago) link
i think the film leaves you to fill in the gaps, but also accept that some of the gaps are intended as unknowables, in the same way that the spy's world contains unknowables. i suppose it's not elliptical plots that bother me so much as circular earnest arguments about the "correct" solution.
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:14 (twelve years ago) link
the setup of the final exposure in the novel still feels a bit opaque to me and i re-read the fucker 3 or 4 times.
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:15 (twelve years ago) link
yeah i hate that kind of shit. i'm kind of anti-nolan solely because of it tbh
xp
― Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:15 (twelve years ago) link
yeah one of my big bugbears with Nolan is i think he invites that shit deliberately
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:16 (twelve years ago) link
donnie darko is the pinnacle of that shit.
― When a German communicates, you listen (LocalGarda), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:17 (twelve years ago) link
yeah i have seen the miniseries and read the book twice each and just saw the movie i still dont really remember how the final trap works
― max, Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:18 (twelve years ago) link
i thought memento was a really unsatisfying exercise. i enjoyed inception somewhat but my first thought as the credits rolled was "i don't want to read a single thing about this shit on the internet"
― Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:18 (twelve years ago) link
anyway, no nolan in the lecarre room
― Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:19 (twelve years ago) link
smiley showing up at the boys school though--prideaux is still using his old "ellis" work identity. cant be hard to track it down.
― max, Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:19 (twelve years ago) link
the movie's explication is slightly clearer than the novel's i think. Smiley figures that the Russian cultural attache guy is the mole's handler and therefore by making the Russians think they've smoked out the mole they panic them into warning him - so the guy who turns up off-schedule to meet him must be the mole.
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:22 (twelve years ago) link
yeah and iirc in the novel at least Smiley's aware that Prideaux isn't dead?
yeah in the novel prideaux comes back while smiley is still in the circus i think. the time frame in the movie is a bit confusing to me--seems to compress the novel into a much shorter span
― max, Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:23 (twelve years ago) link
novel version takes place maybe 6 months after Prideaux's capture? film version is much more ambiguous
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:25 (twelve years ago) link
having irina shot in front of prideaux confuses it for me. i thought prideaux had been released by the time ricky goes to portugal in the book, but i might be misremembering
― max, Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:26 (twelve years ago) link
anyway, and i probably said this after i watched it, but one of the most attractive aspects of the movie for me is that i didn't feel compelled to think the details thru. the dreamlike ambience was mostly great on its own, even more deliberately low-key than the novel. there are a couple of silly set-pieces that let that mood down i think. until i watch it again i'm gonna not think very highly of the "threatening to put Esterhase on the plane" scene
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:28 (twelve years ago) link
and the "Irina gets shot" scene was another bum note i think
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:29 (twelve years ago) link
the "threatening to put Esterhase on the plane" scene
i didn't really get what the threat was here. they were just gonna hand him over to the soviets? or put him in a place where he would probably get killed? or just demote him?
― Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:30 (twelve years ago) link
drop him back in Eastern Europe to get picked up by the enemy, yeah
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:32 (twelve years ago) link
i also feel like i missed some details about his backstory. was he hungarian, and a defector to begin with?
― Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:37 (twelve years ago) link
i think he's Hungarian and is "found" by Smiley in Vienna at the end of WWII but i don't think there's a suggestion that he's a defector as such. an emigre tho.
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:39 (twelve years ago) link
found by control i think. Smiley gets super mad at him for being a traitor (in the context of circus power struggle), right?
― max, Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:40 (twelve years ago) link
some of the details of his portrayal in the movie were much closer to the book than the miniseries' was -- flamboyant dresser, unplaceable accent
― max, Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:41 (twelve years ago) link
Speaks 14 languages, all of them awkwardly.
― Andrew Farrell, Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:44 (twelve years ago) link
he's a bit Peter Lorre in the movie maybe but in a film of underdrawn characters that's ok. yeah really Smiley thinks of all of the suspects as betrayers of one kind or another.
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:45 (twelve years ago) link
ciaran hinds was a bit wasted. bland is an interesting character in the book, too.
― max, Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:47 (twelve years ago) link
i think it's probably a deliberate decision to have the characters so flat in the film but it's another thing that makes me question the screenplay a bit
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:49 (twelve years ago) link
On reflection, watching this film on a plane while sitting behind 2 screaming toddlers wasn't a great move in terms of following the finer plot points.
― ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: (Matt #2), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:49 (twelve years ago) link
would have been nice to have bland et al fleshed out but tbf the decision to flesh out the central narrative at the expense of those touches probably needed making for a movie version
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:51 (twelve years ago) link
What's Bland's character in the book? I recall him as being the most underdrawn, as if the name was a hint. If it had been him as the mole I would have felt cheated.
I can only really remember him in one scene though, which is Guillam's trip into the Circus to steal the documents.
― Andrew Farrell, Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:52 (twelve years ago) link
agree with ronan that this was not a difficult movie to follow, as long as you weren't looking sideways at it for the nolanswipe
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:53 (twelve years ago) link
in the book there's a pub lunch scene filling out his background a bit more, iirc- tho yeah he's less involved in the real-time plot than the others
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:54 (twelve years ago) link
bland is the working-class professor who uses his left-wing credentials as a way to recruit students in the eastern bloc
― max, Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:58 (twelve years ago) link
I'm starting to wonder which of you nerdz is the mole.
― Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 26 January 2012 23:00 (twelve years ago) link
we all done it, guvnor
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 26 January 2012 23:10 (twelve years ago) link
nah tho, for all it's fun to nerd out on the details i still think this is mostly a pretty meditation on emptiness and isolation and the horror of office jobs
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 26 January 2012 23:11 (twelve years ago) link
ilx?
― Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Thursday, 26 January 2012 23:16 (twelve years ago) link
Man, the betrayal goes all the way to Smiley's conjugal bed
― Quand le déshonneur est public, il faut que la vengeance soit (Michael White), Thursday, 26 January 2012 23:18 (twelve years ago) link
LOL, goole
i think goole may be onto something
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 26 January 2012 23:20 (twelve years ago) link
noize board = scalphunters imo
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Friday, 27 January 2012 09:15 (twelve years ago) link
pavement artists more like
― the late great, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 15:30 (twelve years ago) link
a few interesting thoughts on the two adaptations:
There is another way the basic material has dated. Karla is considered a genius spymaster, smarter than anybody else in the business. Again, according to one Internet source (yes, I am getting into the epistemology of the Internet, but when better to do it than with the really epistemological world of intelligence gathering?), Karla was based on a specific Russian spymaster. Maybe so, but in the novel, miniseries, and film he is a superspy and infallible. The novel was written in the early '70s in the middle of the Cold War. The western spy services assumed the Soviet spy services were better than ours. We now know they weren’t. After the collapse of the Soviet regime, much, how shall we say, information in the KGB files found its way to the West, and boy, while we thought MI6 and the CIA were a bunch of cock-ups, the Soviets had them all beat. For example, for two years in World War II, the KGB was convinced that the Cambridge Five had to be British plants because the information they were getting was too good. So now we find it a bit hard to believe that “Karla” was all that great at his job. (A lot of information about this comes from a fascinating book I recently finished wading through called Defend the Realm: An Authorized History of MI5 by Christopher Andrews, the leading British historian of intelligence. A warning to you: it’s 850 pages and it is not a quick read.)
http://www.slantmagazine.com/house/2012/03/understanding-screenwriting-90-tinker-tailor-soldier-spy-the-adventures-of-tintin-contraband-and-more
― Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Monday, 12 March 2012 14:28 (twelve years ago) link