I suspect that this thread is a bit mis-named, as it makes the assumption that all overseas manufacturing in developing countries is hideously exploitative.
I also find myself pondering one of the world's great questions - when manufacturing in Britain, the USA, Germany and so on was in its hideously exploitative phase, workers reacted by forming trade unions, often in the face of extreme hostility from factory owners and their friends in positions of political power. I wonder why this does not happen so much now.
― The New Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:21 (twelve years ago) link
employers weren't in the position to shut down production and open up a factory in another country in a day
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:24 (twelve years ago) link
sometimes people are making a decision between two pretty shitty lives
― iatee, Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:16 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
Right. And I think it's important also not to lose sight of the larger ways in which a system might be making things worse for people. Job X > Job Y should not be the discussion ender. Is job x part of a sustainable upward trend in conditions? How did we get to the situation where job x and job y were the only choices in the first place, and do more job x's mean a trend away from the choices being that bleak in the long run?
I don't know the answers to these questions, but I would like to know them.
― frogBaSeball (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:35 (twelve years ago) link
can they do this now? really?
― The New Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:36 (twelve years ago) link
And also, is it possible to posit some kind of workable universal floor in terms of what we consider humane work? And is there any way to actually make such a thing economically viable?
― frogBaSeball (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:36 (twelve years ago) link
One thing that the nytimes article barely touches on is the fact that even if we wanted to return to a hideously exploitive foxconn style manufacturing in the states or UK we would have a hard time of it because of the lack of Manufacturing engineers. I n my experience; of all the engineering disciplines it is the hardest to recruit for and most likely to be filled by an immigrant. We've had an open slot for one for over 6 months now and I've come to the conclusion that it is easier to invent a cloning device to replicate our one (chinese) manufacturing engineer than to find one in the market.
I guess the point is that the infrastructure to support manufacturing is degraded to such a colossal extent that we need to open the immigration gates to get it back.
However to do that someone would need to set a long term strategic plan in motion and as far as manufacturing goes neither the US or UK has had one of those in over 30 years.
In answer to DV's question:
I suspect that the current exploitative factories stay ahead of the curve wrt to maintaining the level of tolerable exploitation. It's been noticeable over the last few years, where the chinese labour market has been tightening, that wages and conditions have been improving and there are (admittedly rare) examples of strikes and other forms of unrest. The chinese are learning from history. (external pressures from consumer economies have also shifted the needle)
I'd love to see a graph that baselines real wages for England in 1750 and China in 1980 and see how much faster wage growth in China goes. (throw on trade volume and population curves as other factors as well)
― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:39 (twelve years ago) link
u shd read it.
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:39 (twelve years ago) link
And I think it's important also not to lose sight of the larger ways in which a system might be making things worse for people.
I do agree with this line of thinking, fwiw, it's just that I think in this specific instance we should acknowledge that economic growth in China clearly has raised ordinary people's incomes. That's not to say that there isn't something deeply problematic about how China's path to growth has had a worldwide impact on the balance of power between capital and labor.
― lukas, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:45 (twelve years ago) link
because of the lack of Manufacturing engineers. I n my experience; of all the engineering disciplines it is the hardest to recruit for and most likely to be filled by an immigrant. We've had an open slot for one for over 6 months now and I've come to the conclusion that it is easier to invent a cloning device to replicate our one (chinese) manufacturing engineer than to find one in the market.
Have experienced a similar phenomenon at my (NYC) company. Applicants from Greece, India... However, our US engineers start morphing into mfg engineers pretty soon as we send them to China for factory visits several times a year...
― Axolotl with an Atlatl (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:51 (twelve years ago) link
some could argue that sitting in a chair for 40 hours a week in a bleak office isn't humane.
'economically viable' is about as fuzzy a concept as humane. could 'we' have everything we need in a world where nobody worked more than 40/h weeks. sure. could 'we' have everything we want? the 'we' is in quotes because a large % of the world still doesn't care whether they have to pay $100 or $800 for an ipad, they're busy worrying about clean drinking water etc.
ultimatelly the biggest moral problems imo:a. everyone on earth who's still living in destitute povertyb. maintaining economic growth in a world w/ limited resources + global warming etc.
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:55 (twelve years ago) link
― The New Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:21 PM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark
feel like the political situation in USA/UK - that whole democratic representation thing - probably contributed
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:56 (twelve years ago) link
― lukas, Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:45 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark
this is true - but some groups of people's incomes have been raised more than others. the problem of what to do with farmers and migrant workers, who off the top of my head probably constitute of 1/2 to 2/3 of china's population, is still unanswered.
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:57 (twelve years ago) link
also when the worst exploitation was taking place in those countries it was entirely in-house, there was no client company from outside pressuring the governments to turn a blind eye or worse
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:59 (twelve years ago) link
maintaining economic growth in a world w/ limited resources + global warming etc.
not an economist but it feels to me like the problem is not maintaining growth so much as having a growth-dependent system at all?
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:00 (twelve years ago) link
well at the very least getting people outta poverty requires growth
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:01 (twelve years ago) link
or redistribution
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:03 (twelve years ago) link
sorta. you can't redistribute an apartment building to africa.
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:04 (twelve years ago) link
yet
*ponders*
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:04 (twelve years ago) link
focus on growth reliancy has always troubled me, encourages boom/bust cycles, increases pressure to provide proper checks & balances. What's the economy running from here.
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:07 (twelve years ago) link
also economic growth can be a lot of different things. I can spend $30 on 30 iphone apps or mp3s or whatever and, ignoring what happens to that money afterwards, I'm 'contributing to economic growth' without seriously contributing to emissions. or I can spend the $30 on gas and go for a drive.
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:08 (twelve years ago) link
xp nope, but cmon now, if only there were some method of storage and transportation of asset wealth hmmm
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:08 (twelve years ago) link
basically the problem isn't 'economic growth' the problem is energy dependent economic growth and there's some debate about how closely they correlate. there's pretty good evidence that it's 'pretty damn closely' but I don't think that has to be the case forever.
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:10 (twelve years ago) link
yeah but in periods when the economy isn't experiencing "growth" financial transactions are still constantly taking place. here in the free world people don't actually start starving because the economy's in recession.
again i'm admittedly an economic illiterate but surely the point is that growth is only an important motor for certain kinds of economies, which are replaceable with a different model in theory if not perhaps in fact
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:11 (twelve years ago) link
― frogBaSeball (Hurting 2), Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:36 PM (33 minutes ago) Bookmark
probably the only rule that everybody can universally agree on is that you be 'properly compensated' in proportion to the work you do
if you are, how much you want to 'work' is up to you
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:12 (twelve years ago) link
that just moves the ball to another cup. what's 'properly compensated'? what does a human being need to live? etc.
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:17 (twelve years ago) link
I just mean that nobody thinks it's bad that we americans allow some people to work 100 hour work weeks because hey, we're paying them six figure salaries or higher!
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:18 (twelve years ago) link
I think it's bad!
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:18 (twelve years ago) link
mostly in the big picture cultural sense tho
what we really are some philosopher kings who will govern wisely and prevent us from excess
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:19 (twelve years ago) link
yeah but iirc that entails shooting all yr musicians oh hang on
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:20 (twelve years ago) link
often those people who work 100h weeks and making 6 figures don't believe that they're properly compensated
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/01/goldman-sachs-bonus-day-is-a-bloobath.html
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:21 (twelve years ago) link
and are
yeah but nobody else thinks they aren't, so they can go thumb themselves
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:21 (twelve years ago) link
workers reacted by forming trade unions, often in the face of extreme hostility from factory owners and their friends in positions of political power
Funnily enough, trade unions still face extreme hostility from factory owners and their friends in positions of political power... in 2012... in the UK
― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:23 (twelve years ago) link
I sorta get at this logical endpoint a lot when I think about this stuff but coming off what I said I think are the big two moral q's (destitute poverty, climate change) there's a question about whether we should be 'economically efficient consumers' (possibly helps the most amount of people?), 'better consumers' (buy only from 'nice factories', helps certain people more) or 'not consumers at all' (the bad environmental effects from consumption matter more than helping people in china)
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:27 (twelve years ago) link
the answer is def 'consume less' but oh hey look the iphone 4s talks to you
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:27 (twelve years ago) link
usual problem of utilitarian ethics tho isn't it? if you only had a computer and a clear view of the future you could calculate the answer precisely but
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:28 (twelve years ago) link
destitute poverty and climate change/sustainability are two good places to draw firm lines, agreed, i think sustainability points towards answers in the questions you raise too? maybe?
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:29 (twelve years ago) link
sorta, but sustainability is still 'picking sides' (the environmental side > helping people in china) and there's a huge gap between living a nearly-emissions-free lifestyle (an a question about how many people could feasibly do it, and what we'd be giving up, etc.) and making some half-hearted gestures towards sustainability.
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:32 (twelve years ago) link
economic sustainability, lower profits for greater stability, etc
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:35 (twelve years ago) link
ah
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:36 (twelve years ago) link
i think i've written an exam answer on it 7 years ago please don't ask me to start dredging tho
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:37 (twelve years ago) link
I mean ultimately the need for gdp growth is more of a cultural thing than a 'requirement' for a market economy. would everyone here be happy making the same amount of money for the rest of their lives?
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:38 (twelve years ago) link
if prices continued to fall due to increased efficiencies ya sure
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:40 (twelve years ago) link
*claps hands, shooes away servants*
as long as the prices of everything stay the same!
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:40 (twelve years ago) link
exactly
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:41 (twelve years ago) link
fuck prices 'staying the same' some of the people in this economy are paid to invent eg kindles
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:42 (twelve years ago) link
also no growth probably will make it harder to find a cure for every disease in the world ever, and the iphone 6 will never come out, just saying
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:42 (twelve years ago) link