the USA, Israel, and national interest

They basically got away with all but sinking a US Navy ship in international waters

Which the folks on the Dignity must have forgotten about

XXP Presumably they don't have that "right," but I don't really know what the provisions regarding international waters and war are. For all I know they do have that right. Countries have been known to fight wars over international waters, no?

they weren't travelling under a red cross or a red crescent, and it appears at least one of the flags in the photograph is palestinian, so this basically reeks of dumb stunt, especially knowing that american sailors died for less

Cynthia McKinney, I forgot about her. She's sorta the original Joe the Plumber.

Tombot OTM, re: dumb stunt.

Israel is likely to interdict in international waters rather than allow entry into an active war zone, vs.

...Israel has a right to ram any boat it wants to in international waters?

not really sure how cynthia mckinney is the original joe the plumber

don't you see, she voted right nearly all the time in the House, just like Joe the Plumber.

greenwald, as usual, more OTM than anyone else: http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/12/30/democracy/

A new WorldPublicOpinion.org poll of 18 countries finds that in 14 of them people mostly say their government should not take sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Just three countries favor taking the Palestinian side (Egypt, Iran, and Turkey) and one is divided (India). No country favors taking Israel's side, including the United States, where 71 percent favor taking neither side.

my bad I get her and Cindy Sheehan confused

McKinney's the one who tackled a police officer, right

she either threw a phone at or punched a capitol cop (depending on which report you choose to believe, the media reports or what the cop wrote down) after he chased her down and tried to tackle her for basically the crime of being a black person imo. she was repeatedly stopped trying to enter the capitol because the cops refused to, like, believe she WORKED there when she'd try to skip the metal detector line like the rest of the legislators. she was right to be fucking pissed with those meatheads, tho maybe hurling your phone naomi cambell-style isn't the right way of going about things.

well I'm glad she decided to quit politics and have indiana jones adventures full time

we should all be so lucky

In case anyone wonders where Brian Eno stands:
...
Gaza is now an experiment in provocation. Stuff one and a half million people into a tiny space, stifle their access to water, electricity, food and medical treatment, destroy their livelihoods, and humiliate them regularly...and, surprise, surprise - they turn hostile. Now why would you want to make that experiment?

Because the hostility you provoke is the whole point. Now 'under attack' you can cast yourself as the victim, and call out the helicopter gunships and the F16 attack fighters and the heavy tanks and the guided missiles, and destroy yet more of the pathetic remains of infrastructure that the Palestinian state still has left. And then you can point to it as a hopeless case, unfit to govern itself, a terrorist state, a state with which you couldn't possibly reach an accommodation.

And then you can carry on with business as usual, quietly stealing their homeland.

http://www.counterpunch.org/eno01022009.html

paw paw hebrew blowtorch

The Israelis are a gifted and resourceful people

Now 'under attack' you can cast yourself as the victim, and call out the helicopter gunships and the F16 attack fighters and the heavy tanks and the guided missiles, and destroy yet more of the pathetic remains of infrastructure that the Palestinian state still has left. And then you can point to it as a hopeless case, unfit to govern itself, a terrorist state, a state with which you couldn't possibly reach an accommodation.

And then you can carry on with business as usual, quietly stealing their homeland.

http://www.counterpunch.org/eno01022009.html

― vermonter, Friday, January 2, 2009 8:36 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

I don't think this is right. I mean it has some elements of right, but it's simplistic, and it displays a failure to distinguish between the current situation in Gaza and the current situation in the West Bank which are, fwiw, under different respective governments. I don't see any evidence that Israel wants to "steal" Gaza, they just don't want to deal with the government that happens to have been democratically elected there, and they don't want to relinquish control of its borders and economy (or lack thereof) until there is a more harmless "government" in place. Israel went to way too much trouble to completely evacuate its paltry settlements in Gaza to suggest that it has any interest in resettling people there. That said, Eno is basically right that Israel's own actions continue to inflame the situation it claims to be trying to end, and that results in a temporarily convenient political stalemate where nothing must be risked or given up. It is worth noting that the backers of Hamas also have some interest in continuing to provoke Israel by constantly firing rockets (in fact, the rockets are useless as a military/defensive weapon and aimed at civilian areas and thus can hardly be seen as anything other than provocation).

Israel's governing Kadima party is under pressure to look strong after its perceived weakness in Lebanon and from the civilian population who does not like dodging rockets. Israel's response is unconscionable and helps to create the problem it claims to be seeking to eliminate, but I don't see it as an expansionist move.

I still think it's funny how the Palestinians democratically (yay!) elected the enemy (boo!). But anyway.

jesus christ, who the fuck asked brian eno to weigh in?

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/06_02/gaza2R1506_468x316.jpg
Lest it be forgotten, this is a picture of Hamas coming to power to in Gaza. Democratic elections not quite the whole story here.

jesus christ, who the fuck asked brian eno to weigh in?

One of the editors of Counterpunch, presumably. What's your excuse?

Paul Craig Roberts
Whatever Happened to Western Morality?

Brian Eno
Stealing Gaza: an Experiment in Provocation

Ralph Nader
America Must Stop Shirking Its Responsibility on Gaza

Jordan Sarging
Can All of You Please Shut Up? (Part 1 of 2)

Alex Cockburn
Some racist shit about 'riper ethnic cauldrons'

Lest it be forgotten, this is a picture of Hamas coming to power to in Gaza. Democratic elections not quite the whole story here.

that picture was taken well after Hamas won the elections, after a Hamas-Fatah military dust-up in which Fatah ineffectually tried to shut them down there.

I still think it's funny how the Palestinians democratically (yay!) elected the enemy (boo!). But anyway.

http://weblogs.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/politics/blog/george-w-bush-picture.jpeg

taking gaza city by strategy

Why the fuck did the US veto away a UN-call for a cease fire?

I haven't been following this very closely but I assume because Israel is arguing that the Amateur Gazan Rocketeer Corps won't respect a cease-fire anyway? I mean, a cease-fire would obligate Israel to stop bombing the shit out of Gaza, and we can't have that, otherwise how will Hamas Learn Their Lesson?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/tracerhand/VisitIsrael.jpg

I haven't been following this very closely but I assume because Israel is arguing that the Amateur Gazan Rocketeer Corps won't respect a cease-fire anyway? I mean, a cease-fire would obligate Israel to stop bombing the shit out of Gaza, and we can't have that, otherwise how will Hamas Learn Their Lesson?

A new Hamas cease-fire would be just about the best case scenario for Israel, and would within their minds, justify this whole thing...

Ah OK - how come?

(By the way, I think the best caption possible for the above photo is "Or visit Gaza - exactly like the Gaza in the news")

Presumably because they could say that their bombing campaign brought it about?

and to a big extent it'd be true

bombing houses give you so much more?

I haven't been following this very closely but I assume because Israel is arguing that the Amateur Gazan Rocketeer Corps won't respect a cease-fire anyway? I mean, a cease-fire would obligate Israel to stop bombing the shit out of Gaza, and we can't have that, otherwise how will Hamas Learn Their Lesson?

― Tracer Hand, Sunday, January 4, 2009 8:55 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

what do you think israel wants out of this? given that the amateur gazan rocket guys have all been locked up (apparently), what *is* their beef? is it just wanton bloodlust or what?

As for what Israel wants, I think this op-ed's right about Israel's intentions in Gaza (i.e. get rid of Hamas and destabilize Gaza by killing large numbers of Gazans, cutting off supply lines and trying to show to Gazans that Hamas can't govern). Israel also prob. sees the US presidential transition period as a way to change the "facts on the ground" before Obama takes office.

Bloodlust plays a part too, imo.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733120252&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Israel's opening of the Gaza crossings to allow in humanitarian aid contributes somewhat to this sense of anarchy, because it makes Hamas look unable to govern. If the Palestinians must rely on Israel's green light to let food aid in from third countries, then that undercuts Hamas's argument that it is able to serve its public.
...
When it loses its ability to do this, when it loses its control of the situation, when its loses its grip on Gaza, then its legitimacy may be diminished in the eyes of its own people.

Palestinian apologists have argued since the elections that brought Hamas to power in the PA in 2006 that the Palestinian people did not really buy into Hamas's extremist ideology, that they didn't really want a Hamas government, but rather, they were just fed up with Fatah's corruption and ineffectiveness, and voted for Hamas because they wanted a government that could rule.

But Israel seems now to be betting that if Hamas can no longer govern effectively, then its public legitimacy may wane. And that, Jerusalem believes, is something that genuinely does scare Hamas.

Also, a reminder the people being bombed (from a report released Jan. 3):

80% of the population cannot support themselves and are dependant on humanitarian assistance. This figure is increasing.

According to WFP, the population is facing a food crisis. There are food shortages of flour, rice, sugar, dairy products, milk, canned foods and fresh meats.

The imports entering are insufficient to support the population or to service infrastructure maintenance and repair needs.

The health system is overwhelmed, having already been weakened by the 18- month blockade.

The utilities are barely functioning: the only electric power plant has shut down. Some 250,000 people in central and northern Gaza do not have electricity at all due to the damage to fifteen electricity transformers during the air strikes. The water system provides running water once every 5-7 days and the sanitation system cannot treat the sewage and is dumping 40 million litres of raw sewage into the sea daily. Fuel for heating, needed due to the cold weather, and cooking gas, are no longer available in the market.

There has been significant destruction in the Gaza Strip, over 600 targets hit, including roads, infrastructure, the Islamic university, government buildings, mosques and civil police stations.

etc etc etc

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=upi20090103-173505-6888&show_article=1

Good thing they're working on such an achievable goal

Next they can take on, like, England

http://www.thebricktestament.com/judges/index.html

40 people killed after tank shells fired into a school. This war's Qana moment?

2006:

http://www.darrelplant.com/images/independent_ceasefire.jpg

the most jarring atrocity on document i've seen, from the end of last month in Gaza:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eOPBO7Z3KT0&hl=en&fs=1";></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eOPBO7Z3KT0&hl=en&fs=1"; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

truly reveals the extent of censorship and unexploited sensitivity keeping this stuff statistical.

&

I don't know how much it matters, but that video is probably from an accidental Qassam explosion four years ago, not from last month:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/04/terrorism/index.html
http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/7n4re/a/9rj2

oh. sorry.