the USA, Israel, and national interest

but not all countries act that way. the US was acting like a country when, after WWII, it realized that "the threat" of japan and germany wasn't just their ability to mobilize tanks planes and soldiers, but also the threat that the regime after next when the americans left (well, they never really did, i guess) would be as bad or worse as the one they'd just dismantled. are the israelis ever thinking that far ahead?

unfortunately that sort of thinking is rare - apparently since WWII we've gotten much worse at thinking that far ahead.

i think if israel was once thinking about that, being demoralized by half a century of continuous war has made them want to just focus on the now.

i know, it's sad. but then the teachers and students in that school my colleague visited were showing some pretty-good long range thinking!

i think the "proportional" thing is totally a red herring. how is a nuclear country with a modern, bureacratic military supposed to respond proportionally to a country of guerilla fighters where it's not even clear who's really in charge at any given moment? it's funny to think they could even attempt such a thing, since the power dynamic is so unbalanced in the first place.

i do question the wisdom of knocking down a developing country's infrastructure so soundly ... can they really expect the *next* infrastructure to function more rationally than the first?

"This stuff about it being disproportionate"

Israel tried to be proportional about it for years - with no results- hamas keeps shooting. (except for the ceasefire which is now over)

"they retaliated, mostly, because they have to if they want to keep their jobs"

don't forget theres an election in a month and a half in israel,after Olmert had to resign cause of corruption investagation against him.
all polls in israel shows that Netanyahu will be the prime minister(again), and he is not involved at this operation at all.
of course everyone want to earn some political power from this situatuion but it's not the main reason for it.
Olmert (and the idf) got loads of bad criticism in israel after and beacuse of the 2006 Lebanon war, so they wont get involved in another military operation unless israel didnt have a choice.

“In the cabinet room today there was an energy, a feeling that after so long of showing restraint we had finally acted,” said Mark Regev, spokesman for Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, speaking of the weekly government meeting that he attended.

lashing out always feels good at first. it doesn't usually make for good policy.

i hate hate hate these stupid arguments about "justification." the question isn't a moral one, ffs. it's a practical one. unless israel intends to kill every single palestinian, it needs an endgame. it doesn't have one. it says that's the palestinians responsibility. but the palestinians don't have the power, the resources or the leadership to resolve the situation. and just blaming the current situation on hamas totally ignores the roles both israel and the u.s. have played in creating it. there is not an easy solution, but there is a hard one, which is also the only one possible: finally negotiating a two-state treaty. and that will require everyone. hamas will have to be at the table. if the point of this bombing was to force hamas to the table, that would be one thing, but it isn't, really. it's just punitive. israel has no political will to do what has to be done. that leaves this up to the u.s. and i'm not at all sure the obama crew really has the guts to do it either, because it would mean calling out israel, right out of the gate.

fwiw -- and this is totally anecdotal -- none of the obama-voting new york liberals i've talked to in the last few days have anything but disgust for israel's handling of this.

(which does not mean anyone lacks sympathy for israelis being shelled, or has sympathy for hamas. but we've seen way too much of this back and forth bullshit for too long, and it just doesn't work. plus it also kills a lot of people.)

but the palestinians don't have the power, the resources or the leadership to resolve the situation

i don't understand what this means. they have the power to not shell Sderot. that is totally within their power. they could do it easily, and we would still have a cease-fire, and Hamas officials wouldn't be dead tonight.

yeah yeah yeah.

i don't even argue about this shit anymore. if you want to keep having the same stupid fights for the next 20 years as the last 20, feel free.

but israel is in a worse position now than it was 10 years ago, and it will be in an even worse position in another 10 years if this keeps up. you have to decide whether a stable future matters more than the satisfaction of bombing the shit out of some bad dudes.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2w2isd2.jpg

but israel palestine is in a worse position now than it was 10 years ago, and it will be in an even worse position in another 10 years if this keeps up. you have to decide whether a stable future matters more than the satisfaction of bombing shooting rockets at/suicide bombing the bad dudes.

omg are the palestinians really killing people? I HAD NO IDEA.

fuck. ok, no, i really don't argue about this anymore. if anyone thinks israel's doing itself any favors with this horseshit, you're as stupid as the totally incompetent israeli leadership.

here's the problem, tipsy. you apparently think that the Palestinians are a bunch of children and Israel is the only adult. there are two people involved in this conflict. why is all the censure aimed at one?

if anyone thinks israel's palestine's doing itself any favors with this horseshit, you're as stupid as the totally incompetent israeli palestinian leadership.

i think what iatee tried to say is that both sides are to blame for this situation.
true, almost on one in israel, leadership and the public, wants to talk with hamas.
the palestinians,esp. in Gaza, prefer the extremists terrorism of hamas over abu mazen (who negotiate with Olmert on regular basis).

in this sad situation, the only realistic solution is whats going on.

but we've seen way too much of this back and forth bullshit for too long, and it just doesn't work.

It works to some extent. There's been a big decline in suicide bombings since 2003, even as the number of rocket attacks has increased. Did Oslo or the withdrawal from Gaza work any better?

but it doesn't "work" in the sense of moving toward an actual resolution. it just pushes the cycle around for another spin.

the withdrawal from gaza was handled horribly. oslo was killed through bad faith on both sides -- on the palestinian side moreso, but israel could have elected to keep pressing forward. instead sharon came to power and what happened happened. meantime, israel's international standing is at its lowest point in a generation, and if you don't think that matters -- if you think that all that counts is whether people in the west bank and gaza are just scared of israel or scared shitless -- then you're not really thinking about the future of the country.

and if palestinians aren't children, israel should stop treating them that way. as it is, israel is acting like an abusive parent who thinks the problem with the surly rebellious teen is that he just hasn't been beaten hard enough. they are not equal powers, and therefore not equally responsible. israel has greater responsibility, and greater capacity to resolve the situation, and has basically refused to. the united states also has significant power and capacity, and has also and likewise refused. the problem is not going to go away, and it is not going to be bombed into submission. and the suggestion from people in the israeli cabinet that this is a way to get their mojo back after the similarly stupid excursion into lebanon just makes the whole thing that much more idiotic. what do they think, the palestinians forgot they have bombs?

and here i am arguing about this again, with people who think short-term revenge is a solid basis for foreign policy and future stability.

It's not parent vs. child, it's child vs. child. Why is the scared, angry Israeli populace expected to act more logically and reasonably than the scared, angry Palestinian populace? Cause they're slightly whiter?

here's the problem, tipsy. you apparently think that the Palestinians are a bunch of children and Israel is the only adult. there are two people involved in this conflict. why is all the censure aimed at one?

― Mordy, Sunday, December 28, 2008 9:33 PM (29 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

it has nothing to do w/ adult vs. child mordy, and everything to do w/ stable powerful democratic govt vs. unstable decentered power structures

like, you keep saying "the palestinians could stop killing israelis" but... which ones? according to the orders of whom?

Why is the scared, angry Israeli populace expected to act more logically and reasonably than the scared, angry Palestinian populace?

because they have more guns, more money, more power and more control over the ultimate outcome.

also, xpost, what max said.

which ones? according to the orders of whom?

uh, hamas, and hamas?

So tipsy, countries with more guns, money and power are expected to be filled with people who make political decisions with their brains instead of their guts?

It's not parent vs. child, it's child vs. child. Why is the scared, angry Israeli populace expected to act more logically and reasonably than the scared, angry Palestinian populace? Cause they're slightly whiter?

― iatee, Monday, December 29, 2008 2:56 AM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this is the dumbest shit ever

stable powerful democratic govt vs. unstable decentered power structures

These aren't accidents of history. Any progress the Palestinians make to go from unstable decentered power structure to stable powerful democratic govt is going to come from them, not from the Israelis. Why is it that other peoples are able to self-determine, but the Palestinians are totally dependent on Israel to do so? I think it's more demeaning to Palestinians to censure Israel for the conflict than to say that they are equal partners. And if Palestinians have more to lose from the conflict than Israelis, than maybe they should act like it.

dude it's not like palestine is an autonomous country like israel... it's occupied... that kind of makes a huge difference in terms of self-determination.

(It's not unlike college administrators saying that if a woman goes to a frat party, gets drunk, undresses, and has consensual sex, that she was raped because the man shouldn't have taken advantage of her inebriated state. There are unexamined, implicit sexist arguments being made there, even though it has the guise of a very enlightened modern argument.)

Many occupied countries, including English-occupied Jewish Israel, were able to self-determine. Are the Palestinians too stupid to figure out what numerous modern states have figured out?

also i agree that israel is a country, not a moral force or a relative of mine, and should be judged by any other country's standards. at the same time, as a jew, that also means to me that it's important to judge its actions the way i would judge any other country's--and not as the only legitimate embodiment of my heritage and the faith of my fathers.

(just saying)

Many occupied countries, including English-occupied Jewish Israel, were able to self-determine. Are the Palestinians too stupid to figure out what numerous modern states have figured out?

― Mordy, Monday, December 29, 2008 3:15 AM (33 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

english-occupied jewish israel did this with no small amount of what you might call "terrorism."

yes and how do you judge the palestinians? as helpless occupied victims just like any other helpless occupied victims?

Yes, it did. I'm not saying that the Palestinians are evil and the Israelis are good. I'm saying that in historical conflicts, sometimes making moral arguments is stupid. If the Palestinians think terrorism will work, they should try it. But we should stop crying when Israel responds.

yes and how do you judge the palestinians? as helpless occupied victims just like any other helpless occupied victims?

― iatee, Monday, December 29, 2008 3:18 AM (39 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

who said that? i mean, besides you? saying that it's racist not to attribute palestinians magical powers of agency is a dumbass strawman argument.

so pretend I kept that at one sentence. how do you judge the palestinians?

which ones?

the ones who voted for hamas, howbout

a lot of votes for hamas were votes against fatah. and there were plenty of reasons to vote against fatah.

but anyway the question isn't how do you judge the palestinians, it's how you live with them. and likewise the question for the palestinians is how to live with israel. and there is really a limited menu of options. you either have two autonomous states, one combined state, or the current situation of one state plus one quasi-state plus one outlaw territory. israel seems locked into the current situation. gaza is clearly locked into the current situation (i.e. hamas by itself cannot force either a two-state or one-state resolution). fatah and the west bank is a point of leverage, but israel isn't even using that wisely. and the u.s. has essentially been an absentee caretaker of the whole thing for the past eight years.

the current bombing isn't aimed at trying to force any kind of resolution. it's apparently mostly aimed at demonstrating israeli "toughness." but its toughness is not the thing in doubt.

and what's the hamas rocketing aimed at?

getting israel to do this kind of stupid shit that endangers its future.

mission accomplished.

Hey I agree! I just don't feel a lot of sympathy for those doing that, or those who put them in power.

Israel should just do a full invasion and finally eliminate 100% whatever is opposing it. Boo hoo palestinian children with no food! Who cares, life is hard and war is reality when a people wants to wipe you and your entire culture out on a global scale. What's Israel going to do, back up its bags and move to Europe? I'm sure they'd love that over there.

Liberals make me so embarrassed sometimes.

19 years old. embarrassed.

Burt, just fuck off and at least read some books like 80% of us have.

me like book

Tipsy my point is it's not clear there's anything Israel could do right now that would effectively "move toward an actual resolution." The prospects for a two-state solution are pretty terrible. Eliminating the rocket attacks on southern Israel may be the best they can hope for, and trying to do that through military action isn't necessarily a stupid, idiotic, and incompetent policy choice.

however terrible the prospects for two states are, the prospects for everything else are even worse -- especially for israel. there are no alternatives for preserving a jewish state.

Personally, it seems to me that this violent conflict is historically nothing new. Groups of people have been having violent conflicts forever, the only novelty is that we're a bunch of educated US citizens who have the time and luxury to make ethical and moral (and even pragmatic) arguments about what the two sides should do. Sometimes there isn't something that the two sides should do except what they are continuing to do. Maybe historically the Israelis and Palestinians need to exhaust each other on war for fifty more years before something emerges. I'm not saying it doesn't suck, or that there isn't fault to spread around - but that we need to assume that nation states are going to act in their self-interest. Isn't there like an entire field of study based on the assumption that groups of people act in predictable manners and with predictable results? If I ever make Aliyah, which I'd like to do eventually, I'll participate politically and voice my opinions. But it seems stupid to sit in my NYC apartment and rail against either side. Neither of them give a shit what I think - and they really shouldn't.