recommend me some essential graphic novels to acquire

I've read the Queen and Country novels, but not the graphic novels (although I do have the first volume on my shelf, just haven't gotten to it yet). They're definitely page turners, like pretty much all of his prose novels. What I really like about them is that they aren't adaptations of the comics, or a totally separate series. They're total canon, with big things happening in them that affect the comic series.

> Man, whatever happened to Sienkewicz?

Big Numbers #3 broke his mind.

Big Numbers broke Al Columbia's mind, too (one of my favorite comics stories...):

EASTMAN: ... So we paid Alan to start working on the scripts again, and Bill agreed to do issue #3, and I really hope this is correct because
this one is kinda “gray” for me, but I believe Bill did issue #3, and was doing the covers for #3, #4, and #5. So the ball started rolling
again. Bill was turning in the work. But he stated, and all agreed, he wasn’t going to continue on with the series after that. So we found
Al Columbia, who was Bill’s assistant, and could draw Bill like Bill and would keep the look consistent. We started talking with Al
about stepping in and completing the project. We flew Al to meet Alan. And we got Alan’s approval. We got Bill’s approval, and it
wasn’t an easy thing, Bill was really uncomfortable with it. Understandably so, it’s like having someone else raise your child, but at
the same time, he wasn’t going to do it, and he said, “All right. You know what? Out of respect for Alan, I’ll let Al step in and do this.”
GROTH: Al was Bill’s assistant.
EASTMAN: Al was Bill’s assistant for a period of time. I’m not sure exactly how long. But he had a very similar style to Bill’s.
So we started working with Al on issue #4. By this time Alan was up onto issue #5, script-wise, and Bill had completed the
covers for issues #3, #4, and #5, and Al’s working away on issue #4. To make a long, boring story short, Al took a couple months or so
extra to finish the work, which was okay until he got up to speed.
GROTH: On #4.
EASTMAN: On #4, and the more it went along, Al became more aggravated and started saying that we didn’t really want Al,
we just wanted a Bill clone. Which is the whole point of the whole thing, and I thought was clearly understood. (Groth laughs) It went
all down hill from there, and he kind of got more bizarre towards the end. About the time he turned in all the pages for the work, he
was sitting in Paul’s office. Paul Jenkins was the straw boss on it, and (Columbia) said, “I want to take all the art work home and give
it the final once-over before we send it off to pre-press.” And then we never saw Al again. I had heard through Marc Arsenault, who
was an assistant under Mark Martin in the art department, that he saw Al Columbia tear it up! Then we heard from someone else that
Al said he never tore it up, he’s got it somewhere. And I’m like, “Well, fuck it. I want it.”
GROTH: You paid for it.
EASTMAN: (laughs) I paid for it. I paid not only to have him do the work, but I also paid to buy the original art. I had already
bought a bunch of original art from Al, the same as I was doing with other creators, like Simon Bisley. I was on the one hand, paying
them to create stuff for Tundra to publish, and on the other hand, I was buying the artwork from people that I respected to exhibit in
the Museum. So I lost on both, page rate and page purchase on that one. (Groth laughs) I know I told you this story when we were at
lunch, but I found one tiny little drawing in the studio we provided Al, above Tundra. For the twenty thousand dollars or more I paid
out to Al Columbia on this Big Numbers project, I found one little cut-out drawing of a character that I later glued onto a cover of a
twisted little book I did called Infectious. It’s my twenty thousand dollars worth of Big Numbers, tribute!
GROTH: A twenty thousand dollar Al Columbia drawing?
EASTMAN: My twenty thousand dollar Al Columbia drawing!
GROTH: I think Al told me that Paul Jenkins threatened him with a baseball bat at one point.
EASTMAN: Really? That’s interesting… but, I guess I’m not surprised.
GROTH: Do you know anything about that? (laughs)
EASTMAN: Well, if Paul didn’t, I would have. (Groth laughs) And I better not have a bat close by the next time I see Al, either.
No, only kidding I’ve forgiven him… mostly…
GROTH: So Al just literally vanished with the pages?
EASTMAN: He turned up like three months later working as a hostess —
GROTH: A hostess?
EASTMAN: A host. (laughter)
GROTH: That’s a revelation. He went to Sweden, and then he came back a hostess…
EASTMAN: What do you call somebody that…
GROTH: Maitre’d?
EASTMAN: Maitre’d. Thank you. He used to seat people in a Northampton restaurant called the Brewery. I understand Paul
went into it because he heard that Al was working there. He went in and was like, “Where’s the fucking artwork?” I’m sure Paul
wanted to kill him. Because Paul really worked very, very hard to make that project work, because he loved Alan as a writer, and he
really respected Bill, and Paul is the one that really smoothed everything out and got everybody going on it again.
GROTH: And you never learned, really, why Al did this?
EASTMAN: No. All I can say, towards the end he just used to say, “You want a fucking Sienkiewicz clone, you don’t want
Columbia.” And it’s like “Al, this is why you were fucking brought in, and this is why you agreed to the project. Because you could do
it like Bill. That you could keep it consistent with the first three issues. You were totally into it. It’s not a fantasy we had here. It was
you! (Groth laughs) We paid you, and you accepted the money, and blew it on lingerie to be a hostess.” (laughter) No, no, no… I’m
really kidding this time.
GROTH: Let me get this straight: Bill finished the third issue, and that was never published.
EASTMAN: Yes, I believe that’s correct. I still have all the originals.
GROTH: So why wasn’t that published?
EASTMAN: Why? Because. That’s not fair.

From here.

(have read that before i think, or alan moore's version of it, somewhere. it doesn't actually say why bill stopped though. i went to the signing in a bookshop in northampton. i was 3rd in a queue of three...)

yes, bill's elektra assassin is good. and i always lump it together with ted mckeever's plastic forks (because i was buying them around the same time?). both suffer slightly from the writer = artist thing though (i find that if the writer is also the artist then it doesn't go through that extra level of explanation that is required if writer and artist are different people and which clarifies things for the reader)

http://cgi.ebay.com/AL-COLUMBIA-1992-BIG-NUMBERS-RARE-ART-PRINT-SIENKIEWICZ_W0QQitemZ250156612117QQihZ015QQcategoryZ972QQcmdZViewItem

wikipedia has some 'where are they now' information for bill including

"Sienkiewicz was nominated for an Emmy Award twice, in 1995 and 1996, for his production and character design on Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?."

!

Rock Hardy, if you like I can email my Dutch cartoonist friend to check if there are any good comic stores. He *might* be able to help you out. Does it have to be in Amsterdam? email me at stevienixed at gmail.com if you need me to contact him and ask about it.

bill's elektra assassin is good. and i always lump it together with ted mckeever's plastic forks (because i was buying them around the same time?). both suffer slightly from the writer = artist thing though (i find that if the writer is also the artist then it doesn't go through that extra level of explanation that is required if writer and artist are different people and which clarifies things for the reader)

Frank Miller wrote Elektra Assassin. (You might be thinking of Stray Toasters.)

I can't make myself unaware of them, so I'm not sure how I could verify that... on one level I think Watchmen's inferiority to From Hell is specifically due to all its superhero-comic-book baggage: on the one hand its amazing to see such a humanistic deconstruction of the genre, but on the other its impact is limited because the story is constrained within those reference points to a large degree. From Hell, by contrast, is just a great story, well-written and painstakingly executed, about much larger and more universal themes and issues and goes DEEP into human culture and the psychology of evil in a way that just isn't possible within the confines of a conventional superhero story (however meta that story is).

I totally disagree with this. Like I said before, Watchmen isn't only about the deconstruction of the superheroes, I think the main thing it does is to use superheroes as symbols and vehicles to explore large, universal themes: politics, war, vigilantism, ethics ("peace at any cost", aka the Veidt solution), the American Dream and what happened to it, even quantum physics (though this last one is done in a rather banal way). Compared to that, what are the "more universal themes" in From Hell? "Psychology of evil"? Well, when you really look at it, FH is about a serial killer who had an unhappy childhood, and who's into occultism and also has visions and is a bit mad. Not a particularly original or deep analysis of "evil". Also, I've always thought these sort of looks into the minds of serial killers aren't particularly universal, because most of us don't have to deal with serial killers.

Now don't get me wrong, I think From Hell is a great comic, but that's exactly because it is more about little details than about the sort of grandiose universal themes Moore had in Watchmen and V for Vendetta. However, I think both Watchmen and From Hell suffer from Moore's tendency to do pompous, over-the-top endings. FH actually suffers more from this, because the ending, with Gull's visions of future and him becoming a "ghost", strays from the general realism of the comic, and actually has little to do with the rest of the story. I think it would've been much better for Moore to let the reader decide how mad Gull was instead of providind the supernatural ending we have now.

Come to think of it, as crosses of Tony Scott movies and Roadrunner cartoons go, Elektra: Assassin is better.

Elektra:Assassin, brrrr. I hates it. Shite story, shite art (shite art as in messy, over the top, gaudy, horrible, etc.), no characters.

"Maus" is a good recommendation. I held off reading it for years, reckoning it would be Lofty and Serious in the way that comics for non-comics fans can so often be, but it is actually very funny a lot of the time. The bits where the whole nationalities-represented-by-animals starts breaking down (Roma as butterflies???) are rather chortlesome.

I didn't much care for Elektra Assassin either. Miller's plot wasn't that impressive, and while Sienkiewicz's might be nice for more experimental comics, in this it makes the story painfully hard to follow.

> (You might be thinking of Stray Toasters.)

i was, yes 8) (and nearly posted as much but nobody else was saying anything and i'd already posted 3 messages in a row...)

"Sienkiewicz's art"

I think it would've been much better for Moore to let the reader decide how mad Gull was instead of providind the supernatural ending we have now.

He did! The reader can totally decide that Gull is mad and imagining or hallucinating the ending, you've just decided it's 4 real.

If he was just imagining things, how comes his visions of future are totally accurate?

Also, unlike the reader Gull doesn't know who the women with the kids who he last sees is, so why would have had such a vision in the first place if it wasn't supernatural?

Spooky.

in fairness, I didn't know who the woman was either until ages later someone explained to me what had happenend. It is not for nothing they do not call me The Brainy Vicar.

I think Moore deliberately left her identity to be a bit of a mystery for the reaer to solve. The biggest clue is actually in the notes, not in the comic proper. Though the last scene makes little sense if you don't know who she is.

Maybe I am being blase, but you guys keep talking about the same things canon, which seems a bit cliche. Then again, Gear asked essential novels so I have no right to complain, I guess. Gotta repeat the love for LADY SNOWBLOOD though. I think it's awesome.

There are only so many options, kinda.

I mean there are far fewer comics made than movies or novels or what-have-you.

yes Tuomas I'm aware how much you hate it whenever anything supernatural happens in a story (be it Lynch or Moore or whoever). This is not a defect of writing or plot construction, its a personal hangup that you have.

As far as From Hell being a deeper work about evil, I think it gets a lot of its resonance from a) being based on actual events, complete with recognizable historical characters and settings and a huge backdrop that basically composed of the entirety of Western culture (see Gull's "tour of London" issue, which is a small masterpiece); b) it isn't just about any serial killer - for one thing, its about the FIRST serial killer - and Gull's evil is clearly bound up in a tradition of oppressive male power that goes way beyond "gosh look at this loony with his weird problem with women" kind of psychoanalysis; and c) because of these bigger themes the book ostensibly has a wider appeal - you don't have to know anything about the history of comics or superheroes or any kind of comics-medium-in-jokes (which Watchmen is riddled with, if not entirely composed of), this is stuff anyone can grasp, it operates on a basic primal level asking questions about what human culture is and how society is structured and the kind of suffering its built on.

Ok, so who is the woman at the end of From Hell?

the woman was supposed to be Gull's last victim, but she escaped (I forget her name, its the one the investigator had a little crush on) - the woman Gull actually killed was someone else who had taken her bed.

The chapter where Gull sees the future is possibly one of the most intense things I've ever read. Left me totally unsettled at the end of it.

Mary Kelly.

Also, unlike the reader Gull doesn't know who the women with the kids who he last sees is, so why would have had such a vision in the first place if it wasn't supernatural?

Do you always know exactly who everyone is in your dreams, and never find them unsettling for reasons you can't pinpoint?

I don't know if I should read through all of this but I am looking for a graphic novel with good art, originality, and void of super hero type stuff (but not too girly).

I liked reading through the previews of Adrian Tomine's work here.
I have read Daniel Clowes - David Boring and Ghost world, Maus, and Jimmy Corrigan the Smartest Kid on Earth. I liked all of them. Clowes is great at capturing realistic expressions and dialog, Maus was great because it was a page turner, and Jimmy Corrigan was great because of its' epicness and wonderful art.

get this
http://weblogs.variety.com/photos/uncategorized/cantgetno.jpg

The Salon

I like deep stuff and creative imagery

get the one i said to get

and the one dr superman

I'll check em out

get this

if you are a HUGE STONER

Eisner's collected 'Contract With God' trilogy.
Eddie Campbell's Alec books (The King Canute Crowd, Three Piece Suit, How To Be An Artist, After The Snooter)
Anything else by Eddie Campbell
Cerebus, as mentioned above, is still astonishing (my guide here: This is the thread where I try and summarise Cerebus )
Fun Home
Lost Girls (not sure how available this is)
Alice In Sunderland is probably this year's finest work
Owly
Scott Pilgrim

> I liked reading through the previews of Adrian Tomine's work here.

tomine has several collections out, mostly short stories but the recent 3 issue extended story is recently out as a book ('shortcomings'). (search amazon for 'tomine')

there's a second volume of maus btw, and lots more daniel clowes and chris ware. have recently read and enjoyed clowes' 'ice haven' and wares' 'acme novelty library 17'.

lone wolf and cub.

Aldo, tell me more re. Alice in Sunderland.

Does one really need to be a stoner to enjoy "Can't get no..."?

Alice In Sunderland is Bryan Talbot's history of Sunderland, filtered through what is known of Lewis Carroll's relationship with Alice Liddell.

It's probably best described as if Iain Sinclair and Alan Moore were collaborating on a book about the North East - imagine something that looks like Voice Of The Fire, or The Highbury Working, only with the comics density of Promethea and Watchmen put together.

Voice Of The Fire, or The Highbury Working

I do not know these books :( I will have a look at Alice though. Sounds good. Does one need to know Sunderland or is it secondary to the story?

Voice Of The Fire is Alang Moore's novel (non-graphic) about Northampton. The Highbury Working is a spoken word piece he did with Tim Perkins which is available on CD (in fact, all his spoken word pieces are good - let me see if I can sort out a Why Ess Eye later).

Sunderland is not secondary to the story, but you don't need to know anything about it. I certainly didn't know very much about it before reading - almost everything was new to me.

I have actually read Voice of Fire. I can't really remembering enjoying it all that much. The offer of the other sounds v good indeed!

Just pricing up Alice in Sunderland now, sounds very interesting indeed!

http://ilx.wh3rd.net/ILX/NewAnswersControllerServlet?boardid=57

CaptainLorax, do you love comis? I Love Comics.

ugh Adrian Tomine

hadn't heard of that Veitch thing before, he's great!

i'm currently reading tomine's 'summer blonde' - i like it, but it's pretty depressing and sad. next up is 'curses' by kevin huizenga.

took me awhile to get into because i've never been a fan of comics or read a graphic novel, but they were gifts.

i've heard lots of good things about joe matt.

Alice In Sunderland is a BUCKET OF SHIT and has ZERO comics density. Every single page is a few black and white drawings of Talbot talking and talking and talking to the reader, in front of hideous, hideous, hideous shitey photoshop collages where he's taken all his reference photos and tried to swerve copyright by blurring the edges and sticking them through My First Oil Painting Filter and My First Lumpy Glass Window Filter. There's nothing wrong with the cross-references, but they don't actually reveal any deep thinking about the connections beyond "Ey up! This happened too! But 300 years earlier. Eh? Eh?" He's so smug about creating (get this) three different versions of himself to portray different levels of reader interest that he takes time to tell you that he's done it instead of just letting you decode for yourself that the fat slob asking dipshit questions is a device to prompt exposition and explication.

Forget the author of Arkwright and One Bad Rat, this is about one-ninth as good as Phage: Shadow Death.

Does one really need to be a stoner to enjoy "Can't get no..."?

You don't have to, but it will certainly help. If you don't have a taste for long poetic allegories instead, probably steer clear.

there's a second volume of maus btw

There's been a complete volume out for ten or twelve years, I don't think they keep the second serialised version in print anymore

Joe Matt is great - a real genius with the "unreliable narrator" tactic, albeit often a quite subtle one. The whole comic is built around a willful exaggeration of his most loathsome and lamentable character traits (kinda like Curb Your Enthusiasm, only much more carefully constructed and executed)

also his brushwork is really beautiful

dude is really nice too. my best friend emailed him asking if he would sign a book for him if he sent it - joe matt emailed back and told him if he hadn't already bought the book to not bother; he would just send a signed one to him for free.