suicide

For what it's worth, the other case can be true, too: I've been around friends and family who have had good experiences with talking to professionals and it's encouraged me to look at it in a better light. After I've spoken about it positively, I can think of at least one other friend who has admitted his life has improved after therapy.

The one thing to remember is that your experience is not unique, and some of the individuals you've probably respected and appreciated have gone through the same.

where you said "three months of mind-bending drugs?" You've been posting to this thread for twice that long

This is true, and probably the best argument you can possibly make under these circumstances. I was very very close two weeks ago to checking back in with my doctor who had made it clear she would prescribe me shit if I ever wanted. But I guess I got cocky and thought I was doing okay, and now this is the crash. I kind of would prefer therapy in a way just to be labelled as 'x problem' and abdicate responsibility. But one of the reasons I don't want to live is because I realise I don't really have a problem, I'm just a massive fucking asshole who should do the right thing and fuck off. And besides which, much as I adore the NHS, it's a 6+ month waiting list for 'therapy', so, you know, that's worse odds than the drugs.

If you commit suicide, you'll be fucking up to varying degrees the lives of people around you

If I live, I'll be fucking up to varying degrees the lives of people around me. If I live to a 'normal' age and die of natural causes, I'll be fucking up to varying degrees the lives of people around me. If I get run over by a car tomorrow I'll be fucking up to varying degrees the lives of people around me. What is the difference?

"But one of the reasons I don't want to live is because I realise I don't really have a problem, I'm just a massive fucking asshole who should do the right thing and fuck off."

No, you're not. This is the most self-enabling talk you can give yourself.

I realise I don't really have a problem, I'm just a massive fucking asshole who should do the right thing and fuck off.

I am not judging you, in fact my feelings about this statement are not not even operative in my mental picture of emil.y!, but this is bullshit. You are the only emil.y there is or is ever going to be, and you have more to offer than you're currently willing to see or acknowledge. We like you. A lot. You haven't fucked up or fucked us over or failed at anything, in any way, in our eyes.

Everyone else here is much more helpful than I am about meds and therapy and I'm grateful for everything they're saying, but this is what I think: No one in your life is thinking about you or your supposed failures NEARLY as much as you are. Mostly because, I say with some sheepishness, everyone else is thinking mostly about themselves, just like you are. It's true!

Too many nots, subtract one.

I think the one thing I don't get, and the one thing that has made me hate the CBT literature I've been given the most, is the naive assumption that every human is good. I'm pretty sure you guys must hate people sometimes, so why would you assume that just because I post on ilx that I'm one of the good guys? Maybe I'm one of the people that you've muttered "ugh, why don't you just fuck off and die" at. Maybe I've done shit that everyone has pilloried your exes for in one of the breakup threads. Maybe I eat popcorn a million times a day at work. Okay, so that last one was a joke, but we all know that sometimes people are actually shit. All the CBT stuff I've seen is based upon the idea that literally nobody is a massive fucking cock, and that is just factually incorrect.

No one in your life is thinking about you or your supposed failures NEARLY as much as you are. Mostly because, I say with some sheepishness, everyone else is thinking mostly about themselves, just like you are.

Yes, this is definitely true for the most part, and I have to attempt to curb the rampant egoism of the depressed to realise that it is just a fact, and not a snub. However, I have done horrible things to people, I'm not a nice person, I leech money and time and emotion from people who don't have it to spare, and I contribute nothing to the wider society. I mean, I'm a Marxist, and I sit in a flat where the rent is paid for by my family crying about nothing. That's a pretty big failure, right?

emil.y,

first, i want to repeat what mh said above to qualify my own experience: There have been very few times in my life that I've felt genuinely suicidal, and they've been fleeting, so I'm not going to pretend to completely understand. I also dealt with the saga of a long, drawn-out bout of mental illness on the part of an ex.... usually, i stay far clear of these threads, b/c i don't think i've got much to add. but – and only because – you seem a cool cat, i'mma add chime in here.

i want to mention (maybe unnecessarily) that career anti-depressants aren't your only medical option. and even if they were...? i know this is somewhat trite to say, but i'm sure you wouldn't hesitate to you take an analgesic for a headache until you could fix the underlying symptom (drink water to relieve dehydration? close the windows to block out an allergy?); and this the best way to look at certain classes of psychiatric medication – as providing a temporary stabilizing function. there are mood stabilizers and anti-anxiety drugs for both short and long-term use, and these really might be more helpful than anything else. sometimes all that's needed is oil on troubled waters, so you can get your thoughts together, and the drugs are a useful tool to get you there.

xp I do like your snappishness, though.

banned whoever that was.

emil.y, I hope this doesn't sound too flip, but you're one of the highlights of the Outloud.fm room. That would suck if you left it for good.

I believe in the right and the power of leaving at a time of your own choosing, but I don't ever think it should be done while distraught, and you sound distraught. Please don't do anything irreversible.

i did too WC, lols. do two bans make an unban

All the CBT stuff I've seen is based upon the idea that literally nobody is a massive fucking cock, and that is just factually incorrect.

for one thing, ime ppl who are generally assholes generally not self-aware enough of it or simply don't care enough to call themselves out on it as you are attempting to do

However, I have done horrible things to people, I'm not a nice person, I leech money and time and emotion from people who don't have it to spare...

dunno, though, like given the way you're thinking about yourself, what would be good enough? winning a nobel or curing cancer or never causing another person grief or something? one's being "worthy" of life or love or happiness or what have you has just about nothing to do with anything you can point to and say "there, that makes this person a 'good' person". it's just a given along with the fact of a person's existence. otherwise we should maybe raid assisted living centers and do away with a great percentage of the octogenarians residing there. imo you're trying to do things with the rational mind, when the rational mind is not the correct tool for said tasks

"generally assholes" supposed to read "GENUINELY assholes", soz

also, em, i think CBT is mostly a load of bollocks. but i'm foremost an educator, and i also believe that every human being has a private struggle to reach a state of equilibrium (cognitively, socially, emotionally) in the universe, to find the point at which they can most efficiently interact and learn and engage with the world around them because hey, c'mon, the world is pretty intrinsically interesting. with kids, helping to reach that equilibrium can be as easy as letting 'em take off their shoes so their socks aren't too tight; with mildly ADHD types caffeine can work wonders, with significantly anxious folks a fidget ball or exercise routine can work wonders. but not everybody's so easy, and sometimes the equilibrium requires chemical and behavioral intervention? this is why drugs and therapy are key –- there are people who devote their lives to helping reach that state of equilibrium, for those of us who struggle constantly to achieve it.

this is all a long way of saying that irrespective of your self-evaluation or self-worth, or of whatever ill wind buffets your back, you need to look at your life from an even-keeled ship before making any major or irrevocable decisions or changes of course. i don't think it matters how much you achieve that clarity (meds, talk therapy, honest consul of friends/clergy/benevolent hobo, yoga), as long as you let yourself have a fair chance to achieve it.

I think this is the thing - every time I've previously ended up ill or hospitalised because of what I've done to myself, it has been while distraught. And yes, I feel distraught now. But I guess that's why I'm posting here instead of being active. I've been reading up more on the things you can do to make it less risky and messy and painful for the people you love, and I think at some point it may well happen, but this is to some extent a distraction from actually ending up in the emergency room yet again.

And I <3 you outlouders, but I do feel like I flip out far too much and annoy everyone when I'm there. All it takes is a couple of ill thought out comments and I behave like a right dick. Much as I love it, it doesn't make me feel like a better person.

Gah, lots of xposts as I try to gather myself:

otherwise we should maybe raid assisted living centers and do away with a great percentage of the octogenarians residing there.

Not true. I'm making a judgement on myself, not asking for there to be a council of people who judge worth. All I'm saying is that you must recognise the feeling, rather than asking you to actively demolish those who you feel to be unworthy.

every human being has a private struggle to reach a state of equilibrium (cognitively, socially, emotionally) in the universe, to find the point at which they can most efficiently interact and learn and engage with the world around them because hey, c'mon, the world is pretty intrinsically interesting

Yes, quite possibly. And I really don't have a problem with anything you're saying theoretically. But sometimes people also want to give up. Sometimes they stop being interested.

with mildly ADHD types caffeine can work wonders

I didn't know this. It's an interesting fact, for want of a better term.

hi emily,

so almost ten years ago, i started this thread. needless to say, i'm still here.

obviously there have been a lot of...ups and downs in the decade that followed that first post. (to be honest, i've been debating reviving it, non-anonymously, in the last few weeks.) so perhaps i am not in the precise headspace to be giving advice here. but bear with me.

i have been through just about everything that everyone has suggested on this thread. drugs/medication. multiple hospitalizations. multiple attempts. (obviously multiple failures.) i don't say all that to try to develop some bullshit presumptuous temporary bond with you. the last thing i want to do is pretend i'm coming at this thread from some form of wisdom. i'm as confused as anyone in the thick of this thing.

what i don't want to do is condescend to you, or treat you with kid gloves because you are in c.risis. i understand your wariness over medication, hospitalization, and et cetera. i share it, even as i know it has helped me. it represents, among other things, a feeling of a loss of control, of relinquishing a certain self-determination in favor of letting trained professionals try to guide you or medication rewire your (to be blunt) tangled circuitry. it takes an act of will to relinquish that control, to put your faith in something other than yourself to get you out of this, find an answer to the "whys," presume that you might think differently about the uselessness of yourself/humanity with a reorienting that might be therapeutic or chemical.

all i can say is, in my experience, it takes a MUCH greater act of will to end your life. as i'm sure you know. so all i can do is implore you, from a position of empathy and identification and respect, to look into the options that require a far less extreme expenditure of will, that are easier (again to be blunt), medication and therapy and even hospitalization, before you even continue to think about the irreversible option. which is of course just that. and your presence on this thread means you strike me as a person more looking for answers (which is good, healthy, human) than someone who's already decided on one.

i can't promise you an immediate or permanent solution, to either the urge or the questions, but i can promise that, because i know you're strong enough to overcome this much smaller fear (without even knowing you, knowing you're still here arguing this tells me that), you will be surprised at how much your thinking about the situation and the questions changes, not only for the better but for the clearer if you accept help. and besides, duh, the questions are only interesting to grapple with if you're still here, and again, given that you're still taking time to puzzle it all out here, i can't imagine you're not more interested in the questions than the solution which permits no more asking.

that is, strongo, a ball-shatteringly good post.

and, again provided that first post didn't seem horribly presumptuous and intrusive and condescending, if you ever feel like you need to talk to someone who's both been through some shit (and so might have a fraction of a sliver of a perspective on it all) and who's still going through it (and so might be able to commiserate if nothing else), please feel free to send a message to me through the webmail feature.

Hi emil.y! I was gonna post some stuff but strongo is bringing the real talk more than I could right now so I guess I'll just say that I still don't know that much about you or anything but I'm glad you're still here!

fwiw strongo I have enjoyed a lot of your writing on and off of ilx and it's really sobering to think that a decade ago, it was you at the top of the thread and we all came that close to not having you around for the past decade.

emil.y i also would like to tell you that i have enjoyed both your expertise and your company, that i identify strongly with your worldview. you're probably very tired and at the end of your reserve of patience. i'm sorry for posting a muppets video once when you said that you were feeling low. that was stupid, and i'm not usually that stupid. well, yes i am, but anyway, please stay. your presence in the world makes me feel like less of a weirdo because i know there's at least one other one out there.

pretty sure if it wasnt for you emil.y i would probably never have heard Cromagnon, so i for one am glad you are around. and if it wasnt for strongo i would never have thought about blending a habanero into a drink and then made it a general party staple for anyone unlucky enough to spend a lot of time drinking with me. both of which seem flippant but tbh its kind of an example about the good little ripples we all cast out into the world that we probably never really think about, but they matter.

right on -- most of the smiles and good vibes and positive effects we all generate, we'll never know about. But they happen all the time.

Hey e.mily you are a quality ILM poster and

Ergh, iPhone. Anyway, stay cool; we need u

most of the smiles and good vibes and positive effects we all generate, we'll never know about. But they happen all the time.

That's what I meant about your Spellbound comment--it was just such a sweet, off-the-cuff thing to say.

emily :(

please stay with us, emil.y.

If you care about friends and family, please don't commit suicide.

i understand this is meant well and i can see its point but it still strikes me as an unreasonable (yet effective!) guilt trip. friends and family don't know what it's like to feel that way. suicide may indeed be a selfish act, but so is saying 'you must carry on lest i feel anguish at your departure'.

emil.y - I don't have the experiences or knowledge about what you are going through/feeling that others on this thread have. All I can say is that I am grateful for your witty, thoughtful and, sometimes, snarky posts on ILX, thankful that you played 'Phew' on outloud and that I love exploring your end of year ILM ballot. All the best.

emil.y I will argue with you until the universe explodes that you are not a bad person, and that there really are no bad people, and I would be sad if you committed suicide.

I would also be sad if emil.y committed suicide. I agree with everyone generally.

can emil.y please post again i dont like this not posting time

just checked & she posted four hours ago in another thread

I did indeed. Still feeling pretty 'oh FFS what's the point?' about everything but thanks everyone for the kind words. Entertaining the idea of staying alive just to arrange an ilx goth cruise FAP.

aw <3

Any reason will do! For a cruise, I mean.

<3 to u, meil.y

:D

omg

I am included in this goth cruise FAP right?

good vibes, em <3

Naturlich, crüt.

fyi I will sing + play Christian Death's "The Drowning" on this goth cruise so stay alive for that

hey let's keep it positive

loooool

Heh <3

i hope trayce co-plans this goth cruise, being ilx's Queen Goth and all.

Sending good vibes over to you Emily <3

Me too emily <3 and hey, cmon, goth cruise sounds like an awesome plan and you wanna be around for that!

lotsa <3 and <3 here emil.y so please stick around!

I've fallen out with almost everyone on ILX but in 10 years I've only had pleasure from emil.y's posts. Please stay (you can choose whether it's an East 17 stay or a Shakespeare's Sister stay).