Canadian Politics Thread

Re: the Mcleans article, I couldn't think of a less convincing argument if I tried, you can drive a truck through his "logic". His main point is that separatism isn't the domain of any one party, rather, it's more a matter of right vs left, i.e. any leftist party will receive some separatist support. And nobody doubts that a lot of separatists and former BQ voters supported the NDP in the election. So how does being a member of the NDP preclude supporting separatism?

There's no stigma attached to being a separatist and supporting a leftist party in Quebec, so how do we know where Turmel stands? The definitive proof is supposedly this: she tore up her BQ membership card, which proves ... absolutely nothing. On one hand, you have an MP who was actively involved on the separatist side for years before migrating to a "leftist" party that will be accepting of separatism, because according to Patriquin, that's how Quebec politics works. On the other hand, she ripped up a card. Which is more representative of her beliefs?

Her claim that she only joined the BQ to support a friend and didn't vote for them is some "never inhaled" shit.

Totally. If she wasn't a separatist and only joined the BQ because their leftist politics overlapped with her own, then why not just say so? If she's lying then it's "I did not inhale", and if she's somehow telling the truth then she's blown her first test on what not to say or do in politics. Either way, Turmel and the NDP come off looking like amateurs.

His main point is that separatism isn't the domain of any one party, rather, it's more a matter of right vs left, i.e. any leftist party will receive some separatist support.

I think his point is the reverse of this, actually: Since the Trudeau era, and prior to the Orange Surge, the only real left-wing options in Quebec have all been sovereigntist/separatist parties. So left-leaning voters may have generally voted for these parties even if they didn't support separatism. He expands a little in his other linked opinion piece: http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/11/04/getting-something-right/

none of this really matters

xpost That's what I said ... people voted for separatist parties because they agreed with their left-wing politics, but not necessarily their separatist politics. I agree with that, but OTOH, this idea that "there were no other left-wing options prior to the Orange Surge" is pure fiction because the NDP have been around for 50 years. The option was always there and Quebecers chose not to support them. So this happy merger of left-wing and separatist voters, which Patriquin claims is normal, isn't as simple as he's making it out to be. And why doesn't this apply to Quebec provincial politics too?

In the long run none of this really matters but even I'm shocked at the NDP's complete ineptitude when it comes to basic maxims of politics. Maybe Quebecers don't care, but they had to know how this would be viewed in the rest of Canada, particularly in Ontario (where they need to pick up votes if they want to form a government someday). And the Harper Tories will have a field day with this -- "the leader of the opposition is a separatist" is the kind of smear campaign they could only dream about, and the NDP have simply handed it to them on a platter.

people voted for separatist parties because they agreed with their left-wing politics, but not necessarily their separatist politics.

OK, I misunderstood you.

I agree with that, but OTOH, this idea that "there were no other left-wing options prior to the Orange Surge" is pure fiction because the NDP have been around for 50 years. The option was always there and Quebecers chose not to support them.

Yeah, this was a constant source of frustration for the NDP iirc.

So this happy merger of left-wing and separatist voters, which Patriquin claims is normal, isn't as simple as he's making it out to be. And why doesn't this apply to Quebec provincial politics too?

Doesn't it? The PQ and QS are both social democratic parties with major union support in the PQ's case. The 'Quebec model', largely built by the PQ, as Patriquin notes, is not that different from the NDP's vision for the country afaik. I guess the right-wing ADQ, who were separatists in 1995 but became 'renewed federalists', might complicate things a little...

In the long run none of this really matters but even I'm shocked at the NDP's complete ineptitude when it comes to basic maxims of politics. Maybe Quebecers don't care, but they had to know how this would be viewed in the rest of Canada, particularly in Ontario (where they need to pick up votes if they want to form a government someday). And the Harper Tories will have a field day with this -- "the leader of the opposition is a separatist" is the kind of smear campaign they could only dream about, and the NDP have simply handed it to them on a platter.

Yeah, the politics of it were largely what concerned me too.

Laying the smackdown on the NDP's stance on "voting fairness":

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/article/1041601--voting-fairness-is-not-divisive

I am shocked, shocked I say that the NDP would stoop to this once the shoe was on the other foot.

Sad news, Jack Layton dies at 61: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/opposition-leader-jack-layton-dead-at-61/article2137070/

oh my god, Jack Layton. this is so sad, i am so sad, in both personal and political ways.
xp with this is the thread where we curse cancer :( :(

Just read the news: very sad, much quicker than I ever would have expected.

This is so, so upsetting. Totally echoing rrrobyn right now :(

i know he was sick but i had no idea...
very sad. RIP

He seemed really sick but I definitely didn't expect this. RIP.

Definitely didn't expect this either. Likewise, I knew he was sick, but had no idea, with the exception of fairly jarring newspaper photo I saw a few weeks ago where he looked emaciated.

Anyways, very sad news (that this happened months after becoming official opposition is kind of adding insult to injury), may he rest in peace.

same here. i was surprised when i saw that photo too. he looked so healthy and full of life (except for the cane) during the last campaign.

Completely shattered by this news. RIP Jack

^

CBC just read his letter in full:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/Jack+Layton+final+message/5289212/story.html

Thinking about the last election, today's coverage, all the goodwill, hard to imagine a more graceful exit.

that's amazing, that he took the time to write it, that it must have been so heartbreaking to do, and how much he meant it, and just, damn.

think i'll head over to City Hall at 4.

Fuck, I just got the news. Did not expect this at all. So crushing. RIP.

that's amazing, that he took the time to write it, that it must have been so heartbreaking to do, and how much he meant it, and just, damn.

I can only echo this.

Unquestionably heartbreaking.

Just got back from city hall. Cute posters of Jack's high school photo, and others with the final words of his last letter: "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world."

It kind of blows my mind when you consider Jack's record. He's been on the progressive side of the issue for his entire career in this way that in retrospect seems precognitive.

Montrealers - there's a vigil in Parc Mont Royal at 8 tonight being organized by NPD Québec right by the statue of Cartier.

And yeah, that letter. I can't even imagine having the strength and character to write something like that, let alone one as comforting, eloquent and powerful as what he wrote.

I mean - a paragraph encouraging fellow Canadians with cancer to remain optimistic and not lose hope because of his prognosis? What an astounding display of empathy above and beyond the call of duty.

That part nearly made me lose it when I read it. What a brave man he was. RIP Jack.

So heartbroken guys

it's really sad to see how strong his mind was even when his body was about to give out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psvexcOn1M8&feature=player_embedded#!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xEBa_ba6RA

Those pretty much effortless sum up why this man was awesome.

Also, the compilation of video clips from his entire political career here: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2011/08/22/f-jack-layton-death-legacy.html

I forgot until this afternoon that he was also a co-founder of the White Ribbon Campaign.

Ahhh :( what a great video

This has just been really bumming me out all day. I went to city hall in Toronto, and at the same time it was incredibly sad and so motivating. It's become apparent that Jack was an irreplaceable person, and that he's left a void at a time and a place where we all really needed him, and that, for me, I can no longer justify my apathy and my passivity. Looking to the future of Canadian politics, in and against growing conservativism, can be kind of scary, and I feel like I can no longer shirk obligations that go beyond voting and opinions. I can only hope his loss will actually engender some of this hope that I may go out and do enter a public, political sphere in an active and engaged manner. If so, it'll no doubt be with him in the back of my mind.

Here's a really nice reader letter that was posted on Andrew Sullivan's site:

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/08/mourning-in-canada.html

OTM. I was struck today at how unabashedly earnest everyone has been (to say nothing of Jack's letter). I couldn't imagine this with any other politician. It sincerely feels as if we are mourning a person, not a political position (though a course a person whose politics is very much part of what made him a great person).

Well said EDB.

I just went to the vigil here in Vancouver and it filled a city block. A friend was saying how you couldn't imagine this for any other politician (or any other non-hockey Canadian, probably?)

wow, state funeral. that's kind of awesome of Mr Harper.

That some people are concerned Harper's trying to score points by having a state funeral for him pisses me off more than I can explain.

Seriously? I'm no fan of PM Harper, but it's the right thing to do no matter how you cut it, and I really don't care what the motivations for it are. Way to miss the point of Layton's entire final letter, concerntrolls of the universe. *sigh*

this is great: http://torontoist.com/topics/layton-memorial.php

it got even crazier:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6065/6076393292_91e4be89e5_z.jpg

& this pic of Thomas Mulcair and Libby Davis is just devastating me right now:
http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01311/web-folio-layto_1311834cl-8.jpg

what i meant to do was this:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6065/6076393292_91e4be89e5_z.jpg

http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01311/web-folio-layto_1311834cl-8.jpg

I wish we didn't have this crazy rainstorm/tornado whatever because I'd love to go back to NPSq tomorrow to look at it.

Alberta's PC party has its new leader: Alison Redford, apparently a 'lifelong' conservative, though her platform reads so centrist it could be interchangeable with a lot of Liberal ones. A lot of people are surprised by this and it's caused quite a stir. From comments I've seen, some on the far right aren't happy (some of them sound like they're scared of how 'socialist' she is!). There are some mumblings that her centrist-y position leaves the far right open for Wildrose to take, which should make for an interesting election. I'm sure the tories will win anyway, but recent leadership shake-ups for PC and Lib parties plus the 'rise' of Wildrose could make things more exciting in Alberta's next election than usual.

I still wouldn't vote for her but she's a much better option than a lot of candidates the PC party could've thrown up.

Some stories: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/provincial-elections/redford-is-albertas-next-premier/article2187705/page1/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2011/10/01/edmonton-alberta-tory-leadership-results.html

Our big Ontario election is this week. Terrible--I've watched every Republican debate so far, but have hardly followed my own province at all. Looks like it'll be close; I'll focus this week and see if the Conservatives are winning my own riding, and if they are and it's also close, I'll likely vote for whoever has the best chance to beat them. My union (teachers) has probably shot itself in the foot with ads that have angered a lot of people, some teachers I know included.

Ugh. The prospect of Toronto being under a conservative mayor, premier, and pm terrifies me.

NDP race anyone?
Personally pretty disappointed with the outcome, though I suppose I'm not really surprised. I'm nervous for the future of the party... I just can't see a Mulcair-led NDP really carrying on from Layton's NDP. There isn't much Mulcair brings to the party that is particularly 'NDP' in terms of his policies or ideology.
So now we have a former Liberal leading the NDP and a former NDP leading the Liberals. It's all gone a bit topsy-turvy on the left, hasn't it?

i was hoping cullen would pull it out. but layton was irreplaceable, i don't think any of the candidates could have brought everything jack did.