suicide

I just need a vacation from physical pain and financial bullshit and everything else around me that is falling apart in spectacular ways. I don't know how much longer anything good about my life will last at this rate. x-post

Thanks, kkvgz. I'm glad to know that I've said something that is worth agreeing with or remembering.

idk if that reads as sarcasm, but it's not fwiw.

melissa w, idon't see your posts often on ilxor, but just the other day, I remember really agreeing with something you said. I hope things become less terrible for you.

― kkvgz, Friday, July 29, 2011 10:52 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark

In the Laura Marling thread, felt like you were defending someone being unfairly maligned. Was v nice. I'm not good at this sort of thing, but hope things get better for you.

idk if that reads as sarcasm, but it's not fwiw.

I didn't read it that way. : )

I'm sorry to hear about your pain and financial troubles. I don't know if I can speak to the pain (although I do know that depression can add extra stress to the body). But the way I try to think about financial bullshit is that sometimes people go through debt and bankruptcy and business failure and general brokeassedness when they're young to become successful later down the road and have very comfortable, enjoyable lives, against all their expectations at the time. This doesn't happen for everybody, obviously, but the only way to make it happen is to keep trying and keep holding on through the hard times.

I'm sure this isn't all that's troubling you, but that's how I deal with money troubles in my mind (and I am teetering on the edge of fucking myself up with debt, myself).

And also, yes, it was the Laura Marling thread where I felt like you had an aristeia. You were truly dispensing righteousness there. : )

Thanks, pandemic. And thanks again, kkvgz. Trying to convince myself that everything will work out but prior experience tells me that even if it gets better for a while, it'll get infinitely worse again. As for the pain, idk.

And yeah, not all that's bothering me, but I'm not sure I can go into detail because it's all really personal and involves family and isn't really fit for public consumption.

MW, I don't have any advice to give you (even though I'm going through horrible family and money problems myself), but I can offer you my sympathy.

Hm. I've been crazily up and down since last I posted in this thread. Trying to get my default position to be 'no, you shouldn't, and if you think you should you should get help', but really I'm still stuck with 'why the fuck not?' I mean, I realise I could well fail, and that would be upsetting to everyone and cost the health service money it can't really afford to lose at the moment, but if I could actually grow some fucking balls and succeed in something for once, it would probably be a lot less painful than anything else for everyone involved.

Why not succeed at something else that goes someone some good, and possibly accidentally does you some good too?

er does, not goes.

In fact, 'no, you shouldn't, and if you think you should you should get help' is actually the answer to 'why the fuck not?'. If you are thinking the latter, it means you need to behave as if the former.

Because I'm shit at everything? (xp)

And the thing is, it's not my over-emotional deep and dark side that says 'why the fuck not?' - it is always my rational side. My emotional side tends to say shit like 'do it do it do it now'. But even when mining the depths of rationality and philosophy there really *is* no answer to 'why the fuck not?' that can possibly override anything, aside from 'because you might fail'.

No one is shit at everything, that's melodramatic and self-pitying and you're having a bad night/day/week/life, I can tell. Don't be silly, because you are not silly, you're a person of considerable dignity and intelligence and expertise, iirc.

Well, shit at the vast majority of stuff/unable to give enough time to the things I'm good at because I'm too scared to approach them/leave the house often enough to complete them. But I figured that would be too complicated to really explain and I was embarrassed about being a complete failure at life. But I guess I'm more embarrassed about being called melodramatic and self-pitying. But hey, cycle of guilt, we can go round this one forever.

it's nice that you think of the health service. I didn't read upthread but I've noticed that you get excited/into lots of things on other threads recently, and it just seems like, if there's clearly still stuff to be excited about, you should probably stick around. I also feel like feelings like this tend to disappear from one day to a next and suddenly you will be like "what on earth was I thinking?" and realize you are awesome.

Yeah all right, but Categories of Failure parts 2 and 3 aren't about being shit, they're about being having time commitments, and being hampered by fear or insecurity, which is, wait let me check...oh yeah, human. Also, oh hello guilt, I wondered where you went! The cornerstone of depression. What would it take, do you think, for you to have the ability to put guilt aside and take whatever steps you wanted/needed without guilt having any bearing?

xp Adam otm!!

Also I don't know who you are at all but I like the period in your username. That takes guts

I really appreciated your contributions to the documentary thread, especially when you apologized for not voting for Spellbound.

Ha, no, even when I feel 'well' (for which read 'non-suicidal', I guess) I never think I'm awesome. Don't think I've ever really had that, to be honest. As I said upthread, I've pretty much felt this way for most of my life, which is pretty much indicative of the fact that I'm unlikely to ever really achieve this... and also why I worry about wasting NHS money - I've been seen in A&E a few times and I don't want to fritter away what we have on my problems, I only want to do it if I actually *can* do it.

xposts to adam's first post

Sorry, it's sort of a tough thread to go back and re-read, but where do you stand on SSRIs?

I see what you are saying but there really are any number of other things that you can *do* that will actually result in you feeling some kind of satisfaction rather than feeling nothing at all and (really) hurting people who love you. And it is okay to fail at these other things, it's actually the whole point. Nobody has to see you fail, even. I think we put far too much emphasis on talent and success and things like that, but I don't think they really exist.

Yeah all right, but Categories of Failure parts 2 and 3 aren't about being shit, they're about being having time commitments, and being hampered by fear or insecurity, which is, wait let me check...oh yeah, human. Also, oh hello guilt, I wondered where you went! The cornerstone of depression. What would it take, do you think, for you to have the ability to put guilt aside and take whatever steps you wanted/needed without guilt having any bearing?

I realise it's human. I actually thought I've been doing a bit better recently - I've been out in the day a couple of times a week and despite being chided for being a sunlight-hating goth it has made the chemicals in my brain work a little more positively. But I don't know, it doesn't seem enough. Even taking pride in having been out that much seems stupid: surely that's what most people do on a daily basis? I feel pathetic and ridiculous. I'm being told to go for the pills by almost everyone I talk to but that scares the shit out of me. It's probably inevitable at this point, mind you.

I really don't get why people are scared of the pills.

Because they have bad side-effects. I don't want to be a fat, sexless automaton. I mean, why even live if that's what happens to you? I guess I probably don't mind so much the possibility of them doing the opposite of what they're supposed to do, though I do have friends who have become much worse on them and they refuse to take any again.

The automaton thing is complete nonsense. As for the other stuff, you can decide between SSRIs that don't have those particular side effects, and people's reactions can vary. Perhaps you should also leave room to entertain the notion of what it might feel like just to be clear-headed, calm and rational rather than thinking of yourself as some kind of doped up neutered robot. Which is, like, totally a strong possibility.

I fuckin hated having to go on pills but it got to the point where I had to try. Things just got REALLY bad and it was starting to effect my family so I've been giving it a shot. i still hate taking them but they've cleared my brain up enough to be able to work through issues and find beauty in the natural world and stuff. Eventually, I hope to work on my brain (ie therapy) enough to cut the pills out. But really, it's worth a try. it may have saved my life. (dumb thing to say, I know)

I mean I understand the temptation to always imagine the worst-case scenario, presumably that's why we are having this discussion. It's just that it rarely comes to pass.

xp

Therapy extremely important also, yes.

Not a dumb thing to say. But, as I say, I don't see why it's considered *irrational* to think in the way I do. I mean, yes, if you do what I used to do and attempt it without even reading up on it, based on some shitty fictional representations of suicide, you're probably going to fuck everything up. But we are all going to die, which will at some point make somebody upset (probably). Why is it so frowned upon to attempt to die at the time of and in the manner of your choosing?

(xposts again)

That's a difficult question to answer and I wouldn't say I personally frown on it, but based on what you have said above, it would also seem worthwhile to at least attempt give yourself the chance of living a satisfying life (in whatever way you choose to define that) by talking to someone whose job it is to help people in your situation. Again, I don't know the details of your life but I might suggest that it is much easier to achieve than it seems.

And perhaps you're thinking I couldn't possibly understand, but maybe I actually do?

Natural death in old age and suicide at a young age affect the nearest and dearest in extremely different ways. I miss my Dad, but he died old and had a fulfilling life, and (with time and distance) I don't feel the extreme angst and pain that I still feel about the suicide of one of my best friends ten years ago. If you care about friends and family, please don't commit suicide.

What Zelda Zonk said.

Words I can only imagine myself "saying" on ILX

I really don't get why people are scared of the pills.

one reason people are scared of the pills is that it can be very hard to come off them - people have nightmare experiences trying to step down from antidepressants. other people don't, thank God for antidepressants when they're right for the right person! but other people can wind up in a cycle of wishing they could get back to baseline even if baseline was kinda hard, and finding that the road back is hard to find & scary now. I was at the point of getting a prescription a couple of years ago and when the psych offered I said "let me give this a month and if I still want to die in a month I will come back and get that prescription," but the clouds cleared for me a little & I didn't go on the antidepressants & I'm glad I didn't.

just one perspective from a generally very pro-medication dude; the path of medication can be an awesome path but I don't think people are wrong to think hard about it before embarking on it.

I do appreciate what you're saying, but I really think it's a cultural thing. We're socialised to think life is the most important thing, but if someone really doesn't want it, is forcing them to have it fair? I feel like I've done as much as I'm ever going to, and you know, it really isn't much, so if I carry on then all I will be doing is taking taking taking from everyone: friends, family, social institutions. Why would you want me to do that? It seems stupid.

xposts: yes, re medication. I've been told it'd take me at least a month to feel any benefit if it does come, and at least two on the mildest to come off if I want to. So that's three months of crazy mind-bending drugs either without knowing if they're any good or actually knowing they're terrible. Not a brilliant thing as far as I'm concerned.

Hey emil.y,

There have been very few times in my life that I've felt genuinely suicidal, and they've been fleeting, so I'm not going to pretend to completely understand. I also dealt with the saga of a long, drawn-out bout of mental illness on the part of an ex where I had to disengage because she genuinely did not want to get better. I saw her taken to the emergency room after hearing her threaten her own life in bizarre, threatening ways.

Frankly, when you say that you feel like you'd be a burden or you'd be wasting time by seeking medical services? That's the depression talking, and it's self-feeding bullshit, to be frank. It's like when a diabetic starts saying they'll always be diabetic and it's a burden on other people, and they end up losing limbs. You know when a friend or family member dies before they reach old age and someone mumbles something about it being "a waste?" That's never a comment that the person led a wasted life or screwed up -- it means that the resources of society, the ones that are waiting there to help, were wasted by not being used by this person we love.

You are liked, and I'd bet even loved, by people in your life. I haven't been able to determine if you've ever sought out therapy or taken medication, but I can say firsthand that it is far from a waste of time. I'm sitting here, not fat and not with any horrible side effects, sane and pretty damn happy in my life because I finally said that I was tired of being anxious all the time and intermittently depressed. I can't claim I've been the best at adhering to what it takes to keep me in good mental health, but I really, really wish that I'd sought this out a decade earlier. Or that my family had understood and directed me to treatment even a couple decades ago.

Don't be too disheartened if you don't get the right solution the first time. Few do. But the number of people I know who are FAR from being "fat, sexless automatons" is pretty huge. I've a lot of friends who have worked through similar issues, and they're pretty much the same as the rest of people I know -- except they're gifted with a perspective that not everyone has had.

BTW, where you said "three months of mind-bending drugs?" You've been posting to this thread for twice that long. Again, the mental illness skews all things in favor of continuing that state.

As a fairly active and welcome presence this message board, it's clear that you feel you have something to contribute even in a context as seemingly small and insignificant as ILX, so do you really believe you are just taking from people?

It took me about ten days to feel siginificantly better from taking an SSRI. And as someone that has taken plenty of actual crazy mind-bending drugs, I have to say the experience is relatively mild.

xp

Just because it's a cultural thing doesn't mean it's not real. If you commit suicide, you'll be fucking up to varying degrees the lives of people around you. It's worth a thought. I don't know you but I really doubt you've done as much as you're ever going to do, that's the depression talking. The world is full of opportunity and I'm sure you'll surprise yourself.

For what it's worth, the other case can be true, too: I've been around friends and family who have had good experiences with talking to professionals and it's encouraged me to look at it in a better light. After I've spoken about it positively, I can think of at least one other friend who has admitted his life has improved after therapy.

The one thing to remember is that your experience is not unique, and some of the individuals you've probably respected and appreciated have gone through the same.

where you said "three months of mind-bending drugs?" You've been posting to this thread for twice that long

This is true, and probably the best argument you can possibly make under these circumstances. I was very very close two weeks ago to checking back in with my doctor who had made it clear she would prescribe me shit if I ever wanted. But I guess I got cocky and thought I was doing okay, and now this is the crash. I kind of would prefer therapy in a way just to be labelled as 'x problem' and abdicate responsibility. But one of the reasons I don't want to live is because I realise I don't really have a problem, I'm just a massive fucking asshole who should do the right thing and fuck off. And besides which, much as I adore the NHS, it's a 6+ month waiting list for 'therapy', so, you know, that's worse odds than the drugs.

If you commit suicide, you'll be fucking up to varying degrees the lives of people around you

If I live, I'll be fucking up to varying degrees the lives of people around me. If I live to a 'normal' age and die of natural causes, I'll be fucking up to varying degrees the lives of people around me. If I get run over by a car tomorrow I'll be fucking up to varying degrees the lives of people around me. What is the difference?

"But one of the reasons I don't want to live is because I realise I don't really have a problem, I'm just a massive fucking asshole who should do the right thing and fuck off."

No, you're not. This is the most self-enabling talk you can give yourself.

I realise I don't really have a problem, I'm just a massive fucking asshole who should do the right thing and fuck off.

I am not judging you, in fact my feelings about this statement are not not even operative in my mental picture of emil.y!, but this is bullshit. You are the only emil.y there is or is ever going to be, and you have more to offer than you're currently willing to see or acknowledge. We like you. A lot. You haven't fucked up or fucked us over or failed at anything, in any way, in our eyes.

Everyone else here is much more helpful than I am about meds and therapy and I'm grateful for everything they're saying, but this is what I think: No one in your life is thinking about you or your supposed failures NEARLY as much as you are. Mostly because, I say with some sheepishness, everyone else is thinking mostly about themselves, just like you are. It's true!

Too many nots, subtract one.

I think the one thing I don't get, and the one thing that has made me hate the CBT literature I've been given the most, is the naive assumption that every human is good. I'm pretty sure you guys must hate people sometimes, so why would you assume that just because I post on ilx that I'm one of the good guys? Maybe I'm one of the people that you've muttered "ugh, why don't you just fuck off and die" at. Maybe I've done shit that everyone has pilloried your exes for in one of the breakup threads. Maybe I eat popcorn a million times a day at work. Okay, so that last one was a joke, but we all know that sometimes people are actually shit. All the CBT stuff I've seen is based upon the idea that literally nobody is a massive fucking cock, and that is just factually incorrect.

No one in your life is thinking about you or your supposed failures NEARLY as much as you are. Mostly because, I say with some sheepishness, everyone else is thinking mostly about themselves, just like you are.

Yes, this is definitely true for the most part, and I have to attempt to curb the rampant egoism of the depressed to realise that it is just a fact, and not a snub. However, I have done horrible things to people, I'm not a nice person, I leech money and time and emotion from people who don't have it to spare, and I contribute nothing to the wider society. I mean, I'm a Marxist, and I sit in a flat where the rent is paid for by my family crying about nothing. That's a pretty big failure, right?

emil.y,

first, i want to repeat what mh said above to qualify my own experience: There have been very few times in my life that I've felt genuinely suicidal, and they've been fleeting, so I'm not going to pretend to completely understand. I also dealt with the saga of a long, drawn-out bout of mental illness on the part of an ex.... usually, i stay far clear of these threads, b/c i don't think i've got much to add. but – and only because – you seem a cool cat, i'mma add chime in here.

i want to mention (maybe unnecessarily) that career anti-depressants aren't your only medical option. and even if they were...? i know this is somewhat trite to say, but i'm sure you wouldn't hesitate to you take an analgesic for a headache until you could fix the underlying symptom (drink water to relieve dehydration? close the windows to block out an allergy?); and this the best way to look at certain classes of psychiatric medication – as providing a temporary stabilizing function. there are mood stabilizers and anti-anxiety drugs for both short and long-term use, and these really might be more helpful than anything else. sometimes all that's needed is oil on troubled waters, so you can get your thoughts together, and the drugs are a useful tool to get you there.

xp I do like your snappishness, though.

banned whoever that was.

emil.y, I hope this doesn't sound too flip, but you're one of the highlights of the Outloud.fm room. That would suck if you left it for good.

I believe in the right and the power of leaving at a time of your own choosing, but I don't ever think it should be done while distraught, and you sound distraught. Please don't do anything irreversible.

i did too WC, lols. do two bans make an unban