2011 Oslo/Utoeya Norway attacks

"I am in blood
Stepp'd in so far that, should I wade no more,
Returning were as tedious as go o'er."

I'm not sure how much some people understand what 'ideology' means. Ideology does not have to be rational or self aware, nor is it value neutral. Like culture, people don't have ideology; it has them. Obviously a pacifist would be much less likely to do this than a fascist, and an aversion to violence can be a part of ideology. Fascism is an ideology that sees a redemptive or purifying element in violence. Ideology has everything to do with the actions this crazy person took, the scale of his actions (an old fashioned 'propaganda of the deed' anarchist might just have killed a political leader) and his choice of targets.

Maybe people would be happier with 'Weltanschauung'?

Analysis from Stratfor:

http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2011/07/26/consequences_of_a_moderated_far_right_in_europe_99603.html

The whole thing is interesting. Somewhat paradoxically, it concludes that the mainstreaming of the far-right in Europe has left the most extreme members more isolated and frustrated than before and hence more prone to resort to violence.

A harrowing account by a survivor:

http://midgetviking.wordpress.com/2011/07/23/hell-on-utoya-an-eyewitness-account/

The conspiracy theorist left isn't really extreme left in the traditional sense.

man, tell that to the guy who threatened to put a bullet in my head for not agreeing with his most batshit pseudo-Marxist beliefs

g-d crut!

Curt1s, was this your former roommate, or someone else? How did this happen?

I'm not sure how much some people understand what 'ideology' means. Ideology does not have to be rational or self aware, nor is it value neutral. Like culture, people don't have ideology; it has them. Obviously a pacifist would be much less likely to do this than a fascist, and an aversion to violence can be a part of ideology. Fascism is an ideology that sees a redemptive or purifying element in violence. Ideology has everything to do with the actions this crazy person took, the scale of his actions (an old fashioned 'propaganda of the deed' anarchist might just have killed a political leader) and his choice of targets

I'm not really satisified with this, yes ideology just means somebody's opinions or beliefs/goals, in which case a useless word to use in making a point here. There's no distinction between "people don't have ideology; it has them". Opinions and beliefs are out there in the world and people adopt them. It's not an either or.

Of course "ideology" has everything to do with the actions this guy took, yes his opinions or beliefs or goals (fairly sure a dictionary definition supports me here) had something do do with what he did.

But that doesn't say anything whatsoever, it says zero to point that out. He had opinions and goals. He had an ideology. He killed teenagers in cold blood, repeatedly. Everyone has "an ideology". He committed the standout spree shooting Europe's ever seen, perhaps the world. Far more an issue of somebody's own utter psychotic lack of empathy than just saying "oh it was ideologically motivated".

I'd normally lean towards understanding but somebody like this has no right to have their motivations considered. Egotistical and detached murder.

It's not so much that he had an ideology (which as you rightly point out is to say nothing) but that the ideology he embraced may well have validated and reinforced and mental illness that he may (or may not) have had. Presumably people's illnesses manifest themselves in very different ways depending on the society in which they live - the most obvious example would be the difference between medieval manias focusing on God or the devil and modern manias focusing on media etc. (TVs feature in a large amount of schizophrenic delusions for example, as do tracking devices and other surveillance techniques.) It isn't, I think, beyond belief to imagine that prominent ideological messages could make the difference between a man seeking treatment and committing an atrocity, especially when such an ideology is expressed in violent language and images, attacking those considered weak and subhuman.

Mostly I think that all the refusal to engage with the social and political beliefs of this man achieves is to let the far-right off the hook for the content of their propaganda. The fact that they don't act upon their beliefs to this level is cold comfort. I have no idea what was going on in this guys head, or if it could have been prevented, but I know that the european far-right needs to be checked, and such circles are unhealthy for anyone, never mind those who may be more vulnerable and confused.

i dunno, i don't want to exonerate the far right, but i do think someone like this aggrandising their actions with a really spurious cause is wrong too. i agree totally about you as regards people's illnesses, even surely "communists" something must have been targets before (tho breivik's anti-marxist thing strikes me as really into realms of madness, that sort of "anyone i hate is a marxist" vibe.) feel like there's an intellectualising that breivik wanted, either through mental probs or otherwise, that he doesn't deserve. i know i'm seeming blunt in saying "he's a madman" or something, but i don't think you can be rational and do something on the scale he did it. i mean, it really was a huge calculated mass murder. when would he have stopped, theoretically, if he had the bullets?

like this has no right to have their motivations considered

They may not have a right but it might be worthwhile to demolish the 'logic' behind it, to engage with the thought process if only to show how wrong-headed and counter-productive (not to mention batshit evil) it is.

Worth a read (not from Frum himself, but a Norwegian contributor):

http://www.frumforum.com/oslo-killer-posted-on-my-site

The comment from Carney -- who is well known as a pretty trollish sort on FF -- is of interest, in that this whole thing seems to have caused him to sober up a bit.

but i don't think you can be rational and do something on the scale he did it. i mean, it really was a huge calculated mass murder. when would he have stopped, theoretically, if he had the bullets?

If you can rationalise it as an act of war, not an act of revenge as most spree killings would tend to be, i guess anything's possible. I think this is one of the ways in which the underlying ideological nature of the crime at the very least acted as a magnifier. Viewed as part of a narrative of a distasteful act necessary as part of a 'greater good', people have done far worse. That's the mentality of Beslan, Bologna and Mumbai, not the mentality of Dunblane. The fact that there might be a madnes driving that mentality is important but so is the context in which it is expressed.

it's incredibly difficult to pick out what kernel- ideology or mental health issues- started the feedback loop that led to breivik committing these acts. I think someone upthread pointed to the nurture of isolation/reinforcement of certainty mentality being a lot more prevalent on the extreme right, though, making it a lot easier for either root cause to become a driving force of this or similar acts. Attributing this to either root cause really does let the unreflective nature of right wing discourse off the hook imo

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/07/25/the_super_lux_super_max?page=0,0

hmm a country that doesn't treat its prisoners like chickens, pretty novel

I feel like there is a line between "not treating prisoners like chickens" and "make sure they have a professional recording studio available to them"

this is pretty amazing, i must say

considering flying to norway and stabbing somebody

I feel like there is a line between "not treating prisoners like chickens" and "make sure they have a professional recording studio available to them"

― iatee, Tuesday, July 26, 2011 10:50 PM (53 seconds ago) Bookmark

lol i typed that post before i got to the "professional recording studio" part

An inmate learns to ride a unicycle in the prison gym. Seriously.

seriously considering becoming a Norwegian criminal, wau

this definitely explains Burzum's continued existence

wonder what their re-arrest rate is. also incidence of violence in prisons.

I bet there's very little violence in the prisons

I also bet there is a small but persistent number of repeat offenders who just like chilling in jail on their unicycles by the recording studio

why are you planning on going to norway and committing a non-violent crime?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14287822

BreakingNews Breaking News
Police in Norway are hunting a 'dangerous', unstable man who identifies with alleged mass killer Breivik - state TV via Reuters

for the love of god

i assume i'll be pilloried for saying this but there's no reason this breivik guy needs to exist henceforth. i hope someone manages to kill him before the trial is over.

Presumably allowing the right to point to killer 'leftist extremists' and conspiracy theorists to suggest it was all a huge fix and they had to get rid of the fall guy before the truth came out.

Nothing has been more moving than the 150,000 people in Oslo protesting against the idea that murder is a legitimate solution to anything.

good job, norwegian police

BreakingNews Breaking News
CORRECTION: Norwegian police correct their own information and say the man they seek has nothing to do with Breivik - Reuters

Ah but they're suggesting that anyway, it was linked upthread. They should show those pages to Breivik.

Dowd completely OTM on this thread by the way.

I'm not going to pillory amatuerist (is that right? pillory? looks weird) because when I saw his stupid grinning face in the papers yesterday I felt pretty much the same. But I also think I would have been wrong to act on that impulse.

Also Michael White OTM xps. The amount of weasel words coming from the right about this is sickening me.

I feel like there is a line between "not treating prisoners like chickens" and "make sure they have a professional recording studio available to them"

Bobby Beausoleil wasn't in prison in Norway

I don't think that all norwegian prisons are like that, just like not all prisons in America are like the ones on those America's Hardest Prisons type shows.

Norway's Rockingest Jails

He's put in Ila and may stay there, which is a pretty sad-looking and typical jail

http://www.svd.se/multimedia/dynamic/00770/ila_770480c.jpg
http://multimedia.dn.no/archive/00152/D2_Fengsel_p__innsi_152096i.jpg

Fun fact: Was used as a concentration camp by the Nazis under the name of Grini.

he still gets a pommel horse, tho

grini & bear it

Thought about posting the same thing, refrained

i admire your restraint

The shit I'm reading about this guy on Le Figaro is rather telling. He claims his stepfather has slept with 500 women, passes his time in Thailand with hookers and gave his mother herpes which somehow led to meningitis and that she now has the IQ of a ten year old. Supposedly his half-sister has slept with 40 men, has had chlamidia and is "almost sterile". None of this prevented him from living with his mother, of course, and he explains that, as a self-styled 'Templar knight', he wasn't ashamed since it helped him save money for his neafrious plans.

He sounds like a case of arrested development turning inward into sociopathy. It's as if he never made it past the age of 13. Apparently he slept with a high class hooker the night before he went on his rampage.

he... gave his mother herpes?

His step-father purportedly did

I somehow missed "his stepfather" in my original readthrough, which made that really alarming and upsetting; now it is merely upsetting.

I'm pretty sure that herpes doesn't lead to meninigitis and a diminished IQ

dude is a total sociopath and a narcissist

herpes can cause meningitis btw

Oh, nm then.