ATTN: Copyeditors and Grammar Fiends

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Please help me, O Wise ILX Grammarians.

An ESL client for whom I'm doing some editing wrote:
"Jim hands the last sheet of paper to gloomy Jeff."
I changed this to:
"Jim hands the last sheet of paper to a gloomy Jeff."
Now aforementioned client wants to know why I put the "a" in before "gloomy". He's quite right to ask this, as he's trying to learn, but for the life of me I can't explain why I did it -- it just sounded more idiomatically correct to me. Is it GRAMMATICALLY correct and can anyone give me a sound rule to trot out to him (because I've looked in all the bleedin' resources I can think of -- online, Chicago, Copyeditors' Handbook -- but am not quite sure what to actually look for here) or is it wrong and I've lost my mind? Perhaps I should just admit defeat and tell him to recast as "to Jeff, who looks gloomy"... TIA for helping out and saving me reputation...

surfer_stone_rosa (surfer_stone_rosa), Saturday, 12 August 2006 18:45 (nineteen years ago)

I think the original sentence, "Jim hands the last sheet of paper to gloomy Jeff," is fine. Your addition is grammatically correct too, but doesn't really add anything.

Danny Aioli (Rock Hardy), Saturday, 12 August 2006 18:56 (nineteen years ago)

"mitigate the possibility" isn't at all ambiguous!

Nabisco, if you can give me a good explanation of the practical semantic difference between "trying to make a possible event impossible" and "trying to reduce the chances of the event", I will stop thinking that you get totally bonged out when you think about language.

I can't find a rule on the "a gloomy Jeff" construction but you could make an argument that "Gloomy Jeff" sounds like a proper name whereas "a gloomy Jeff" describes the current gloomy incarnation of this particular person named Jeff. That is totally me talking out of my ass, though.

Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Saturday, 12 August 2006 19:04 (nineteen years ago)

Thank you, Jesus Dan-ny Aioli -- I think you're both right. No, Dan, no ass-talking there -- that's pretty much what I was trying to say; just wanted to be able to add "Look, it says so in XYZ Big Important Book!" Ah, well. I'll put both scenarios to le client and let him pick.

surfer_stone_rosa (surfer_stone_rosa), Sunday, 13 August 2006 10:33 (nineteen years ago)

I should think that "forestall the possibility" would have been closer to conveying the sense of "trying to make a possible event impossible" and "trying to reduce the chances of the event".

Aimless (Aimless), Wednesday, 16 August 2006 03:09 (nineteen years ago)

the word you're looking for is militate

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 16 August 2006 03:25 (nineteen years ago)

Dan, I meant it was ambiguous because the reader might have to think for a second about whether it means (a) keeping an event from happening or (b) making the consequences less bad if and when the event does happen. So as for this:

the practical semantic difference between "trying to make a possible event impossible" and "trying to reduce the chances of the event"

... that's more just a random thought on top. Because yeah, I think there's a slight difference between how we talk about things being "possible" and the way we talk about them being "likely."

For instance, if a nuclear technician says "the possibility of a meltdown is unacceptable," then the solution might be to shut down the reactor entirely (because a meltdown is either possible or not).

Whereas if he says "the likelihood of a meltdown is unacceptable," then the solution is just to take steps to reduce the chances of a meltdown.

So I just mean there's a difference between possibility and probability -- one's more absolute, the other's more scaled -- and the connotations of "possibility" versus "likelihood" match up with that.

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 16 August 2006 04:43 (nineteen years ago)

"23% of 13&endash;15-year-olds"

that's how it is; i don't like the way it looks. what would you do?

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 25 August 2006 17:03 (nineteen years ago)

har hmm

"23% of 13–15-year-olds"

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 25 August 2006 17:04 (nineteen years ago)

13- to 15-year-olds

bernard snow (sixteen sergeants), Friday, 25 August 2006 17:08 (nineteen years ago)

23% of the 13-to-15 year-old age group

Scourage (Haberdager), Friday, 25 August 2006 17:09 (nineteen years ago)

no

bernard snow (sixteen sergeants), Friday, 25 August 2006 17:13 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, I'd go with Bernard Snow's suggestion.

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 25 August 2006 17:19 (nineteen years ago)

y'all can't see me but rest assured that I just spiked my mouse onto the floor in celebration

bernard snow (sixteen sergeants), Friday, 25 August 2006 17:20 (nineteen years ago)

He played the better game on the day, I guess.

Scourage (Haberdager), Friday, 25 August 2006 17:22 (nineteen years ago)

now i'm curious. is there anything we should know about 23% of 13- to 15-year-olds?

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 25 August 2006 17:34 (nineteen years ago)

23% of 13- to 15-year-olds know how to spell "23% of 13- to 15-year-olds"

StanM (StanM), Friday, 25 August 2006 17:35 (nineteen years ago)

"are emos"

Scourage (Haberdager), Friday, 25 August 2006 17:35 (nineteen years ago)

I am still getting used to "emo" as a noun.

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 25 August 2006 17:45 (nineteen years ago)

love you bernard snow

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:02 (nineteen years ago)

how come all the grammar threads?

jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:05 (nineteen years ago)

the next part of the sentence is "have tried tobacco in lower- and middle-income countries" ... dangling hyphens ahoy

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:05 (nineteen years ago)

xpost: Their extremely interesting for some've us, Mr. Totalwizard.

Scourage (Haberdager), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:07 (nineteen years ago)

how come all the grammar threads have tried tobacco in lower- and middle-income countries?

jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:07 (nineteen years ago)

how come all the grammar threads?

September is just around the corner; grammar is in the air!

Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:07 (nineteen years ago)

have tried tobacco in lower- and middle-income countries

So the rich ones took buses into poorer neighborhoods just so they could try tobacco?

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:19 (nineteen years ago)

(Also is that really "countries," and not "counties?")

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:20 (nineteen years ago)

nabs i swapped that around for exactly that reason!! sentence now runs "23% of 13- to 15-year-olds in low- and middle-income countries have tried tobacco"

and yes it is countries.. the phrase appears so often that i wonder if it would be ok to say "(LMICs)" after the first ref and then just use that

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:24 (nineteen years ago)

I shook my head this week at "blood-urea-nitrogen levels." No wonder I can't remember any of these 'rules.'

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:28 (nineteen years ago)

two weeks pass...
"big-upped" or "bigged up"?

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 20:49 (nineteen years ago)

What?? Bigged up. Totally. Mothers-in-law, etc.

Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 20:51 (nineteen years ago)

The latter makes more sense grammatically, and Google prefers it by about 10 times as many hits. But the former sounds more colloquial to me, and since the expression is basically slang, it seems like that should be taken into consideration.

But what do I know: apparently, the second Google hit for "big upped" is something I wrote on ILM two years ago!

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 20:53 (nineteen years ago)

Ha -- I'm going to go out on a limb and say they're distinct usages:

Big-upped = "Big up to my man Ray-Ray"
Bigged-up = "I just want to big up my girl Trina back home"

... in which "big up," the earlier usage, is a noun (something given to someone, like a shout-out), whereas the later usage is a transitive verb.

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:02 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, that's right, I went there.

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:04 (nineteen years ago)

I am in awe of you. For Realz.

Young Fresh Danny D (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:05 (nineteen years ago)

But I would match the modern gerund (which is "bigging up," not "big-upping") and go with "bigged up," which is mostly how people do it now. ("Big-upped" could be marked archaic/90s and reserved for such uses.)

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:06 (nineteen years ago)

Oh no you di'int. (XP)

Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:07 (nineteen years ago)

http://daphne.palomar.edu/hgerhardt/images/Golf%20We%20are%20not%20worthy.JPG

l-r: ILE, ILM, nabisco

Young Fresh Danny D (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:08 (nineteen years ago)

(xxp) Huh, well, I buy that "big up" can function as a noun or a verb, but if you're putting it in the past tense, then it seems like it's only referring to the usage as verb. How does "big-upped" correspond to a noun usage?

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:08 (nineteen years ago)

"Big up to my man Ray-Ray"

I'd also propose that you hear "big ups" (plural) just as often as the singular, when it's used in this way.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:10 (nineteen years ago)

Hm. For a slightly different approach to the same distinction, to have "big-upped" someone requires that you actually used the words "big up [to]" in the original situation, whereas "bigged up" could be any kind of inflated praise or strong recommendation.

Oh bother, you've basically all said it already.

Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:11 (nineteen years ago)

Okay I'm actually mostly joking here, but I think there's been a shift in the words. At first people would say, you know, "big up to so and so," in which "big up" sounded interchangeable with "much respect" or similar. But then as soon as people started talking about this habit, it had to become a verb, and so the "big" part became the verb, maybe -- in part because it makes intuitive sense as an equivalent to talking a person up.

xpost -- I meant "big-upped" refered to a noun in the way that e.g. "toilet-papered" can be a verb that's been made out of a noun. Also, yes, spot on with "big ups!" Which are kinda offered TO people, right?

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:12 (nineteen years ago)

Wait, no, that actually makes sense, Laurel.

So: "I big-upped Nabisco" = "I said, 'Big up to Nabisco.'"
Whereas: "I bigged-up Nabisco" = "I was talking about how great Nabisco is."

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:13 (nineteen years ago)

No hyphen in the second one!

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:17 (nineteen years ago)

So, Nabisco, would these usages transpose to the British variant, shout-out?

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:19 (nineteen years ago)

No hyphen in the second one!

You're hardly one to talk, but you're right in this case.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:20 (nineteen years ago)

I don't think "shout-out" is uniquely British...?

Young Fresh Danny D (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:21 (nineteen years ago)

No. Neither does Webster's, which usually has a little chiefly Brit. caveat:

shout-out n (1990) : a brief expression of greeting or praise given esp. on a broadcast or audio recording

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:23 (nineteen years ago)

Of course he's right, I didn't use a hyphen for a reason. ; )

Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:25 (nineteen years ago)

I didn't use a hyphen in my initial post, either! The second time was a typo, I swear!

I think my problem with "bigged up" is that it's difficult to accept "big" as a verb with multiple tenses ("bigs," "bigged," etc.). "Up," on the other hand, already functions in this way in expressions like "upped the ante."

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:27 (nineteen years ago)


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