The Locking of the Avril Thread

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― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 16:59 (twenty-one years ago)

A usage from the current issue which I consider no more offensive than your usage upthread, f'rinstance, J0hn:

'I once heard a horrible, horrible man (my biological dad) say, "An Irishman is just a nigger turned inside out." Though that quote is wrong for a plethora of reasons, it can be effectively used to describe punks, who are essentially frat boys turned inside out.'

http://www.viceland.com/issues/v11n5/htdocs/frats.php

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 16:59 (twenty-one years ago)

re: the question way up there about the tweeness of Pieces of April - no soundtrack on Earth could have made that film less twee. Pseudo-punky teen star! Interracial couple that's accepted by everyone after hints at things being otherwise! Boyfriend looking like he's doing something shady, really buying a used suit! Reuniting with a disliked mother who's dying of cancer! Thanksgiving dinner with someone from every conceivable ethnic group in New York City!

(still an enjoyable movie)

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Friday, 18 June 2004 16:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Wow, that quote is a horseshit piece of writing.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:01 (twenty-one years ago)

It's not too late.

― Rockist Scientist, Friday, 18 June 2004 17:02 (twenty-one years ago)

No Dan it's transgressive, 'cos they say "nigger"!

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:03 (twenty-one years ago)

J0hn: 2
Vice: 1

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:04 (twenty-one years ago)

What is Vice magazine? I don't read mags that are likely offend me.

― C-Man (C-Man), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Wow, that quote is a horseshit piece of writing.

B-B-But the author used the word "plethora!"

― martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:06 (twenty-one years ago)

"Would you say I have a plethora of pinatas?"

― St. Nicholas Ridiculous (Nick A.), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:07 (twenty-one years ago)

It's horseshit because the writer's using the form of the original quote in a manner that implies that "Irishman", "nigger", "frat boy" and "punk" are all equivalent, plus the writer is trying to have his/her cake and eat it too with this "This concept is so wrong and horrible that I disagree with it, yet I'm going to use it as a thesis metaphor" construct.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:08 (twenty-one years ago)

My big issue has little to do with the offensiveness of te word "nigger" and much to do with the apparent inability to be internally coherent.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:09 (twenty-one years ago)

But Dan! "PLETHORA!" That's some educated writin' right there.

― martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:09 (twenty-one years ago)

if this thread culminates in a re-telling of the time Dan kicked that guy's ass in high school, then I will consider it a success

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I also have an issue when I make a typo in a post criticizing someone else's writing. Grr.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I was giving a friend tips about how to write for Vice yesterday. I would hold this up as a good, attention grabbing intro. The line about 'a horrible, horrible man (my biological father)' is funny.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:12 (twenty-one years ago)

another bad metaphor!!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:12 (twenty-one years ago)

OMG multiple cross-post!!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:12 (twenty-one years ago)

it wasn't interesting this time Ned :|

I learned a new emoticon from this thread. It's a success!

is that the "bored" or "generally blase" or "ennui" emoticon?

I enjoyed Pieces of April....i give it this emoticon : )

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:14 (twenty-one years ago)

i like it better in italics too because it makes his eyes look crooked...more perplexed.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't see how it's internally inconsistent, Dan. The writer says the 'horrible horrible man' (his dad) was saying that Irish people were no better than black people (ie he was prejudiced, but just as prejudiced against the white poor as the black poor), and this writer is using the metaphor to say that punks are no better than fratboys.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:17 (twenty-one years ago)

'horrible, horrible man' = "i'm not a racist but..." i.e. I am about to say something racist and wish to cover my ass.

― bnw (bnw), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Studs McFuckface, the author of the text, is clearly Gavin McInnes, Vice's 'controversial' publisher. He ends with a piece of libertarian Canadian Ameri-critique: since they're pretty much indistinguishable, the division between punks and frats must be divide and rule on the part of the powers that be.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Because the author is condemming the metaphor while at the same time throwing it at two other groups of people. That's the inconsistency.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Racial amends are made, just to make it super-clear, with 'Jesus, didn't you read Machiavelli when Tupac told you to?'

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:25 (twenty-one years ago)

IOW, I do not think it is consistent, fair, or laudable to criticize someone else's prejudice, then co-opt its forms of expression to excuse your own.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, in what context can it possibly be funny that one of your parents is a horrible racist? Is this a white thing?

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:28 (twenty-one years ago)

'Hoist on your own petard' makes for quite nice poetic justice, though. What would the French Revolution have been without the sight of those guillotines being used on the very aristocrats who used to use them on everyone else?

It's funny because the loathing is recognisable. It's a voice and a sentiment we know. We loathe our own kin with a special vehemence.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:31 (twenty-one years ago)

What's also quite amusing is the 'equal opportunities' nature of the, ahem, off-colour remark. It's just as racist against the Irish as against the blacks. Now, that also rings true. 100 years of New York's history is a fight between Italians, blacks and Irish to not be at the bottom of the heap. The remark preserves that history.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:33 (twenty-one years ago)

There's also humour in saying 'Now, we cannot say this any more, and it's wrong wrong wrong, but I'm going to say it anyway...'

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Ha, I was about to retract my last post because I hit "Submit" and then went, "Oh duh, all comedy ever to thread."

As it stands, though, I don't find that line funny at all. This really shouldn't be a surprise as the only thing I've ever read in Vice that I thought was funny was the "Don't" where they captioned a picture of an anorexic girl walking down the street with comments along the lines of "JESUS CHRIST! PUT DOWN THE BURGER, FATTY!!!"

Anyway, you still haven't addressed the point that calling someone an Irishman is not the same thing as calling someone a nigger and how neither of those is like calling someone a punk or a frat boy.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, in what context can it possibly be funny that one of your parents is a horrible racist? Is this a white thing?

Often the "my parent (or grandparent or whatever) is a rascist and listen to this stupid thing they said" comment intended as humor is another poor attempt at "I totally see where you're coming from even though I'm white."

I've actually been guilty of this myself a couple times, and I always felt completely shit about it later on account of I probably shouldn't have brought it up in the first place since it's neither anecdotally funny nor particularly useful. (I mean when would that info be useful other than a situation like "as my non-white significant-other-about-to-meet-my-rascist-family, I just want to give you this warning?")

(Note that my folks aren't rascist at all, but I do have other relatives who are to varying degrees in in varying states of denial.)

big multiple xpost

― martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought you were into "cutting-edge." That kind of "oooh, I'm so un-PC" humor is as old as anything PJ Harvey co-opts.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:38 (twenty-one years ago)

wow that article... sub-Breakfast Club at best.

― bnw (bnw), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:38 (twenty-one years ago)

100 years of New York's history is a fight between Italians, blacks and Irish to not be at the bottom of the heap.

On behalf of the WASP Nativists, Orthodox Jews, Dominicans, Haitians and Puerto Ricans, I'd like to extend a big New York FUCK YOU.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Dan, I don't think those are equivalences, and neither does Gavin (if it's Gavin, which I'm sure it is). But it's amusing to see the Olde Worlde racial prejudices of his dad (if it's 'his' 'dad') put side-by-side with the subcultural snobbism of hipsters equating frats with punks, then doing an intellectual flip at the end and saying 'Tupac made me read Machiavelli, and now I realise that we all ought to party together, and if we don't it's because we're being divided and ruled'. It's classic Vice, really.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Also Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and Middle Easterns give you the one-digit salute.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:41 (twenty-one years ago)

man, where the hell did the "s" in "rascist" come from every time I spelled it in my last post? It is one of those words that never looks right to me, but I'm usually a lot more vigilant about it.

― martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:41 (twenty-one years ago)

On behalf of the WASP Nativists, Orthodox Jews, Dominicans, Haitians and Puerto Ricans, I'd like to extend a big New York FUCK YOU.

I'm sorry, you can't all be bottom of the heap. Form a queue!

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Momus in not understanding a damn thing about American demographics, history or class issues non-shocker.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:44 (twenty-one years ago)

I told you, I'm with Vice Japan. We're trying to get Japanese kids to listen to Tupac and read Machiavelli. It's great!

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:46 (twenty-one years ago)

monoculture suits you, fascist.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Vice is itself indistinguishable from a frat

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:47 (twenty-one years ago)

AHA! That's it!! That's what happens when I try to spell "racist" and get "rascist!" I'm combining "racist" and "fascist!"

This is probably true, actually.

― martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Vice is itself indistinguishable from a frat

Also, J0hn so OTM that I'm doing a little dance in my seat and coming up with the melody to a new song I'm going to call "J0hn OTFM."

― martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:49 (twenty-one years ago)

the EMPEROR of FALSE DICHOTOMIES fancies himself a UNITER, but we all know the EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES (BUT AN EYEPATCH)

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:49 (twenty-one years ago)

fascist

hstencil in not understanding a damn thing about European demographics, history or class issues non-shocker.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:50 (twenty-one years ago)

also, Japanese kids listened to Tupac long before that smug Montreal fuck did.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Momus are you going to try to argue that only continentals can be fascists or some other such bullshit?

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:51 (twenty-one years ago)

The Scottish minister with responsibility for the fire service has resigned following reports that he described firefighters as "fascist bastards".

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 17:52 (twenty-one years ago)

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