mountaineering

Fred Beckey (video)

cool video!

i was searching for a good climbing thread but didn't think to search "mountaineering" is river wolf still posting?

i climbed a little bit in high school/college. not much at all, all indoor stuff too. the college where i work now has a wall and a bouldering cave, free access anytime, they rent shoes/equipment, too. so i've been messing around a bit since starting this job, and i kinda want to get into it a bit more.

any recommendations for good shoes for beginners/novices? i like the velcro ones, real easy to get in/out of. also, is it true you should buy a size lower than normal?

also, currently reading krakauer's "into thin air." wow....

oh hi guys

i'm just going to shamelessly plug my friend freddie's new book: One Mountain Thousand Summit

it's a piecing-together of the complicated and contentious 2008 tragedy on K2, and an investigation of both the mistakes and the aftermath. of particular interest imo is his exploration of the heroic and practically unreported actions of the climbing-Sherpas involved---esp since he takes the time to explain the historical, sociological, and personal circumstances that shape the lives and perception of these guys

anyway, i'm only 2/3 thru, and even though the writing is a little uneven at times (it's his first book!), it's compulsively readable and (imo) totally accessible to a non-bro audience---you don't really have to know a ton about climbing to follow the action, and fred seems to have consciously styled his writing to be digestible by the layperson.

i know none of you will read it, but man i would kinda love an otm nabisco (or max or someone smart) review, esp since fred raises a lot of chewy issues w/r/t the wider public's perception of mountaineering ("reckless!"), the curious socioeconomic disposition of professional climbing-Sherpas (some of them were "equal partners" in some teams' summit bids, not just "the help"), and the eerily futuristic way in which the tragedy was reported ~in real time~ via satellite phones and blogs (eg one climber was calling his wife from a sat phone while he was hunkered down for ~fifty hours~ and she was, in turn, relaying the info to a webmaster, who was giving a live feed on a blog).

anyway---read it! freddie needs the money!

Fraid I'm a sucker for anatomy-of-a-tragedy mountaineering books and will almost certainly order this one.

Live web coverage of the big mountains has become a real issue, hasn't it – in that blame is now being apportioned even before people are off the mountain, while we do not even know who has died, let alone how ... Quite grisly.

yeah, if I'd been a cannier English major I wouldve done a senior project on mountaineering/tragedy books---pretty ripe for cultural criticism imo. mountaineering itself is an old and mature subculture with weird codes and morays, and the retrospection and apportionment of blame/success in mountaineering lit raises interesting questions about authorship and reliable narration. plus egos, post colonialism, modernity, etc

also: generally cracking reads ime

The spate of books in the wake of Into Thin Air make a case study in themselves - Anatoli Boukreev's and then the extraordinary book of the South African expedition, especially. Together they comprise the Rashomon of Everest disasters.

Cool story of a couple of climbers who were first to summit some unexplored and unclimbed mountains in a very remote part of Afghanistan.

http://www.tetonat.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/50classicscover.jpg

moms got me a to-do list for xmas, thx

^_____^

Ueli Steck climbs the north face of the Eiger mountain in 2 hours, 47 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-dPjDYVKUY

so. baller.

holy shit at the footage from ~2:15 onward: like a crab running up a mountain wtf

I'm kinda shocked there are still unsummited peaks out there...

most of them are! <3 mountains

TAKE A NUMBER - In the 16 years since Into Thin Air, Mount Everest has become safer in many ways, with better storm forecasting and amazing high-altitude rescue helicopters. So why did 10 people die in 2012?

(BTW, have to give props to Outside magazine - their investigative reporting is some of the best out there)

That was a really good read. But I have to say that the "DEATH ZONE" article linked to in there (the original blog post with the images, not the Gawker reprint) is one of the most terrifying and poignant things I have ever read.

The photos are kind of depressing - I had been reading about traffic jams on the way up Everest but until I actually saw the pictures, I had no idea of the scale.

That image of George Mallory face down and clutching the mountain is haunting. More like a sculpture instead of a corpse.

There was a passage in The Old Ways (yes, spoiler alert) about how Macfarlane took the daughter of one of his friends to the mountain that he had perished climbing - only to discover on their ascent that the glacier had moved, and brought the man's body to its surface, 18 years later, perfectly preserved. It was both haunting and chilling, reading the passage where he warned the daughter to go back, then had to explain what had happened, and her making the choice to view her dead father's body, perfectly preserved as she had last seen him, as a child. That image just really struck with me.

I have the Macfarlane book on preorder here. Can't wait to read it.

I've been increasingly obsessed with hiking the Hadrian's Wall Path and have sort of been in a fugue state of highway archeology and historical exploration. Probably a side-effect of not working and being at home all the time.

That story reminds me of the discovery of the Star Dust crash site and the WWII-era pilots that keep being found up in the Sierras.

I had been reading about traffic jams on the way up Everest but until I actually saw the pictures, I had no idea of the scale.

Yeah, those queues just look idiotic. Plenty of other mountains out there to climb guys.

After plowing through dozens of Everest documentaries and books, I felt like I knew the Sagarmatha Zone better than I knew the hills above my house - that is until I searched YouTube for Everest climbing videos and lost about two hours.

The best one is this footage from up on the Lhotse face with great zooms into other activity on the mountain, including a big traffic jam on the South Summit. Fuck, it looks steep as hell and positively alien.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0oVJR0W8yQ

p boss

btw can i pimp my friends' movie? ok thx

http://www.theoldbreedmovie.com/

Taking a nice hike in the mountains aside, aren't 'extreme' climbers of the type who scale K2/Kanchenjunga necessarily odious yuppies? The very act of needing to 'get to the top' strikes me as self-indulgent, reckless and requiring a degree of mania to even want to do. Especially when a lot of the climbers themselves have young families.

I half-watched this pseudo-documentary recently that was obviously made by North Face. It profiled these climbers seeking to climb the "Sharks' Fin" on Mount Meru. One of their previous failed summits brought the party within 'shouting distance' of the top, before they had to turn back due to weather. However, afterwards they began planning a second expedition... because. I just can't relate to that! If you've made it that close, why not call it good and revel in your ability to even get that far? Can't you enjoy the experience without putting some arbitrary condition on success? What makes one think this way? Peeking into the psyches of these climbers is interesting but mostly for all the wrong reasons.

Think of the sheer amount of privilege and social and financial capital that goes into having a hobby/compulsion such as this: acquiring visas/having the spare time/having the financial means to acquire the (extremely expensive) equipment/having the upbringing that entailed getting into the hobby in the first place. Maybe I'm being a bit strident and lack romanticism when it comes to human beings doing things because they can. But at least the original mountaineers a la Hilary could at least be seen to have some scientific/exploratory aim.

I have to say that folks like these are certainly gifted athletes. And of course I could apply this whole logic towards things *I* like, like musicians, who can be equally self-absorbed and destructive and consumptive. I dunno. Kind of a half-thought I've had since watching that doc. How much does a whole expedition like that cost in total? 100,000 dollars? At least. One of the climbers had to go to the hospital for some massive stroke/brain problems and also lost toes. How much did that medical care cost? Doesn't that kind of seem a bit flagrant when people in your own country lack basic preventative care? Or when millions of people in the country you're climbing in lack access to basic sanitation? How do you even get 'climbers insurance'? Or are they quite simply that rich?

I read somewhere that some sherpas were originally baffled as to why westerners would *want* to climb to the top of mountains. That seems a bit more wise than the attitude I currently see permeating the sport as a whole. Overall I haven't made up my mind necessarily, and obviously I am a bit fascinated by the topic or I wouldn't have thought this much about it. Any particular books that would convince me of the value of alpinism? Or at least let me relate a bit better to their point of view?

i have a lot to say about this, but, to be brief, you're...not really right about most of that

Well, that's enlightening, thanks.

chill dude writing takes time

aren't 'extreme' climbers of the type who scale K2/Kanchenjunga necessarily odious yuppies?

young urban professionals? no

the mountaineering community (and there is one) discusses stuff like Western privilege all the time. sometimes not very insightfully, or with much nuance, but it's not like no one has ever noticed the glaringly obvious before. also alpinists have been derided as callous narcissists ever since ppl started walking up mountains just for the hell of it. not that anyone needs to worry about their feelings or anything, it's just that pretty much everything you wrote has been said a million times before, it's a stock criticism.

anyway, it seems to me that you are conflating "guys/gals that go on guided expeditions maybe once or twice ever" with "guys/gals that climb mountains all the time."

my friend Fr3ddie, who made that film (his first), has been working as a guide for years, and making very little money doing it. he did come from privilege, yes, absolutely. and that is definitely what afforded him the chance to even learn about climbing. but right now he lives in a 12x12 shack (that he built) in new hampshire, works as a rock climbing guide in the summer, makes one or two Big Trips, and works as an ice climbing guide in the winter (well, now he's getting paid to write, too). those Big Trips are in part subsidized by sponsors, and he does get most of his equipment for free or for very cheaply. which seems fair to me, since he actually uses his "extremely expensive" equipment every day.

(nb mountaineering equipment isn't wildly more expensive than other kind of tools; it would certainly cost more to take up, like, furniture making than it would to have the needed supplies for a mountaineering trip).

mountain guides, in general, are the people that are doing most of the mountaineering out there, and as they say, the only difference between a guide and a large pizza is that the pizza can feed a family of four. and, as aimless pointed out, they don't live in cities. many of the guys i knew that made Big Trips on their own dime worked as carpenters, or doing other manual labor in the off-season. moreover, not all mountaineering trips are "expeditions" in the sense you seem to be thinking of. sure, it might cost 50k for a relative novice to get to the top of everest, but that's because someone has planned every single moment of their trip for them, including meals, travel, permits, and someone (many someones) to carry their shit since they are a fat yuppie.

but most climbers (actual millions of people do this activity, btw) travel the same way as the "groovy int'l backpacker" set, just with heavier packs. if i had the time, i could go climb something in the Andes for under $3000, i'd reckon. that isn't cheap, but i have a sneaking suspicion that some of the haughtier dismissals of mountaineering are made by people that might just maybe consider $3000 pretty cheap for two weeks doing anything anywhere in Europe.

also i think what you're missing out on is that these people ("these people") aren't driven by some psychotic "need to get to the top." they actually just enjoy the physical act of getting out there, climbing is really really fun. and so for some, it's a hobby, for others it's a job. and for "odious yuppies," sure, it's an expensive way to earn bragging rights.

and just to put you on the spot: what exactly is so galling about people having fun in bad weather in dicey places that compels you to make wild assumptions about their motivations? or immediately assume that they're self-absorbed yuppies who don't think about poor people? is it ok if they only do it once? what if, god forbid, they want to do it again? or is it only ~really~ despicable if they do it in a foreign country with lots of poor people? what if they got all of their equipment second-hand? does it matter to you that, decades ago, "alpine-style" mountaineering actually developed as a criticism of the "expedition-style" you're suspicious of?

things to read: i'll have to think about this. fr3ddie's book (pimped upthread) is actually pretty good, and he spends quite a bit of time picking apart how western mountaineers and sherpas relate to each other. if you want to read something that will shatter your image of "mountaineer as yuppie" you can read pretty much anything by Mark Twight, though he will shore up the notion that climbers are psycho. the Alpinist magazine is usually really good, and usually includes a lot of historical stuff. i'm ashamed that i haven't read some of the classics (one of which, funnily enough, is called Conquistadors of the Useless), so i can't recommend much there.

tl;dr: "At either end of the social spectrum there lies a leisure class." - Eric Beck

good lord i am sorry for posting all that

this is where you can get insurance, btw, and it's worth poking around the whole site if you want to get a better sense of the public face of mountaineering: http://americanalpineclub.org/

the annual journal:
http://aaj.americanalpineclub.org/

after looking at that AAC website, i guess i will concede that the mountaineering ~world~ IS rather like the art world, what with the preservation societies and fundraisers and outreach and self-congratulatory publications and such. it's a world of privilege, but it's maybe not the kind i gather you imagined.

Don't be sorry, gbx. I read it.

I give global tetrahedron credit for not going into full-rant mode and for counterbalancing some of his opinions by signalling the degree they were based on conjecture rather than deep study of the subject. However, people like global tetrahedron are not close enough to the mountaineering community to know how much they do not know, and unless someone explains it to them a bit, they will have no remedy for their (necessary and rather commonplace) ignorance.

xps

also, just cuz i'm procrastinating and have been thinking baout mountains on my own lately, here's how i break it down to an extent: climbing equipment really isn't that expensive, when compared to the other stuff that people spend money on for fun. especially when you consider that some of the pricier bits (outerwear, shelter) can be used for other things, like walking around in bad weather or basic normal camping. serious undertakings (ho ho) may require specialty tools, and it's always smart to have back-ups---that said, a basic alpine rack is still going to cost less than or equal to what a lot of people pay for one guitar and one decent amp. if you are fortunate enough to live somewhere with good access to the mountains, then you'll only need to pay for stuff as you lose/destroy it. if you have to travel, well...oversized baggage aside, dirtbaggin in mountainous areas is pretty affordable, actually. you're sleeping outside and making your own (spartan) food!

this may not be true, but i've always wondered if the assumption that climbing gear is expensive comes from the fact that it is (or appears to be) really dangerous. surely if one is doing something as stupid/reckless as falling off the side of a rock, the safety measures are High-Tech and absurdly priced (maybe even on purpose, to dissuade such foolish behavior!). but, it's like, nope, a single wired nut costs ~$8 and you can use it over and over and over again. i have, and have used, biners my dad got some time in the 70s. sure, ropes need to be replaced, but you can have one for the cost of an oil change and one or two trips to the pump.

perhaps they are thinking of the cameras they bring along

taking kids to climbing gym for first time tonight

tbf, a full-blown K2 expedition such as cited by gt, does cost a lot, and scrounging up the money for a big group effort like that is a rare talent and a difficult sell to a bunch of hard-headed business folks. I notice that Eddie Bauer has ponied up a fair-sized chunk of cash and equipment for some recent expeditions, mainly because they long ago lost their cred as outfitters and they thought it was worth buying back.

btw my kids are self-indulgent and reckless, they might be extreme climber material

oh for sure, i think it really does cost like 50k/head for those insane siege-style guided expeditions, considerably more if they're like fucking webcasting from the base of everest or something.

twight on expeditions:
"Climbing used to be counter-cultural. The parts of it involving great risk still are." he explains "Where others are trying to collect high numbers on sport routes or high summits by any means, the few alpine purists are searching for a particular psychological experience, regardless of the summit, the difficulty or the mainstream. In a sense, Alpine Style is rebellion against an acquisitive climbing culture that is full of 'collectors.' Climbing by fair means is a Luddite philosophy that has no place in the modern, 'fast food' style of climbing we are becoming accustomed to."

dude is a blowhard for sure, but i agree that it's a shame that the public conception of mountaineering (and other forms of climbing by extension) is that of a wealthy, middle-aged westerner huffing oxygen while a sherpa carries all the heavy stuff.

also that is killer, hunt3r. my dad took me to the gym (a novel concept at the time) when i was 13 and it really set the hook. not that i've been out climbing since, cough, march, but i was actually planning on going tonight myself!

xp basically all kids are extreme climber material, whenever i see a gaggle of them at the gym, they're incredulous that (a) they are allowed to do this at all and (b) that older people think it's a sport, and not merely stupid fun.

one thing that is prohibitively expensive is the cost of climbing permits for certain peaks. everest is upwards of 10k US dollars or something right?

10k per person i should say

dunno, but that sounds reasonable. expedition companies cover that by charging the customer; independent, unguided parties (2-3 ppl) will commonly receive grants from orgs like the AAC or, as is the case in Europe, from their governments.

it's worth noting that exorbitantly priced permits for famous mountains is a pretty reasonable practice: local govts fleecing the tourists.

but "lesser" peaks are often very cheap, or free, and many countries don't require permits at all.

yeah, thats about what i figured, too right as well.

hunt3r do let us know how you get on, thats definitely something i've been thinking of doing with my two little guys

i wonder if expensive permits had much to do with pushing the sport towards minimalist, alpine style ascents in lesser ranges and/or on less famous peaks of the greater ranges. why spend insane money on a permit when you can get full value from some random peak in the canadian rockies that, altitude aside, is way more braggable from a technical/misery pov than trudging up everest.

man now all i want to do is plan a trip for this spring :-/

I read your long post too, it was great, thanks. I admit my feelings are based on conjecture, are admittedly selective, and were especially based on my kneejerk reactions the tone of this fake documentary/promo spot and the attitudes portrayed within, which still grate on me tbh. I love big mountains though! I went on a hiking trek via Darjeeling to Sandakphu and a wee bit of Nepal a year or two ago, saw Kanchenjunga and Everest, and the West Bengal countryside was especially gorgeous. I suppose my own trip was also morally indefensible based on the metric I'd outlined above. No matter, I don't think I hurt anybody. Except my own ankles, which were sore for weeks afterward. I'll look into those books.

also, re: "and just to put you on the spot"-

I made/make wild assumptions about their motivations because their motivations are so unclear to me, especially since these motivations push them into doing something like, I dunno, sleeping in a tent that's hanging on a sheer and sharp rock face above a thousand meter drop so that they can weather a snowstorm and then climb up said sheer rock face. Coupling this with the fact that they are in many cases courting death and some are fathers/have families sort of astounds me, so that's why I wonder. Mine is a premise essentially based on ignorance, but also formed from what I *do* know about them. Wanting an answer led me to possibly make up some of the erroneous beliefs above, but I don't think my caveats are completely unfounded. Not that you said they were unfounded, just that I still feel many of my points are valid.

also, MAN that fakey North Face documentary was shit. this could be a big part of how I came to this stance.

also, on an unrelated note, this picture is amazing and terrifying (1909 expedition to K2):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/K2_West_1909.jpg

gbx did u see this let us now catalogue famous people

i did! it, and the one above, are tremendous

since these motivations push them into doing something like, I dunno, sleeping in a tent that's hanging on a sheer and sharp rock face above a thousand meter drop so that they can weather a snowstorm and then climb up said sheer rock face. Coupling this with the fact that they are in many cases courting death and some are fathers/have families sort of astounds me, so that's why I wonder.

sorry if i jumped down your throat a bit, up there. i haven't had the joy of sleeping in a portaledge, but plenty of people i know have. and while it might seem like courting death, it really isn't, if you know what you're doing. obviously bad things happen in the mountains, but most ppl do alright. it's just a question of comfort/familiarity, really:
http://assets.natgeotv.com/POD/346.jpg
this looks precarious and dangerous, but i'd rather spend the night in one of those than in a normal tent that i foolishly pitched in a depression that acts as drainage. some people might see delicate nylon tents tethered with bits of cord, but i see 9 honking bolts that could each bear the static weight of a good-sized automobile. those guys are gonna play cards and read books and not once wig out about the very slim chance of their anchor failing and plummeting to their deaths.

but the thing is: they didn't just wake up one morning and suddenly feel comfortable with such an absurd position. if you are on a portaledge, on baffin island (this is a picture of The Great and Secret Show), then you've probably got a fair bit of experience under your belt. sure, they've got families, but so do firefighters and alaskan fishermen and war correspondents. i know that it grates on actual alpinists (IANAM) when ppl raise the whole "reckless" and "selfish" thing, largely because the non-athletic side of mountaineering is a pretty serious technical craft. doing things safely in the mountains requires a more than superficial understanding of meteorology, geology (certain varieties of rock are considerably safer than others), engineering/physics (anchors can get real complicated real quickly), basic rescue medicine, and so on. asking a climber if they are ~truly~ aware of the risks involved in what they do is kind of insulting, since literally every single choice that you make is an evaluation of risk/reward. "don't you realize you have children at home??" "wait so THAT'S who those lil monsters are?!"

i'll just gin up a strawman here and suggest that anyone who has ever smoked/used their cellphone in their car while speeding should probbbbbbbbbably not go pointing fingers at ppl who are spending most of their waking moments being ~extremely careful~

i mean the very existence of Accidents in North American Mountaineering, as a publication, sorta puts the lie to the canard that alpinists are fundamentally throwing caution to the wind.

that said, have there been notable, experienced ppl that have made hubristic decisions in the face of objective hazard? loads. was Dan Osman a little...unhinged? very probably.