Richard Dawkins - Anti -Christ or Great Thinker?

(on Scientology)

This isnt that far off organized christanity, guys. Actually, its pretty much the same.

good luck usa

lol challops classics iirc

which hasn't been true of any block of xians in america since god knows when.

black churches used to get bombed iirc

anyway lol this thread, the gift that keeps on giving

Yeah I'm sure those churches got bombed because they were Christian. Nice catch there.

Well, some people try to claim that the Nazis were atheists, so might as well make the KKK atheists now too.

Yeah I'm sure those churches got bombed because they were Christian. Nice catch there

well they were a block of xtians that were persecuted, I don't really see how that's deniable. I didn't know that one block of xtians persecuting another block of xtians didn't count.

see also: painting anti-bullying campaigns as the return of gay indoctrination and some quasi orwellian nightmare.

The big problem is when it gets to the political sphere, where a political group is quoting the Bible to justify some position. Who should get the blame for being close-minded: the group? or the religion as a whole? What if the group is misrepresenting the religion, or does that matter?

Seems to me much of what Jesus is for in the New Testament is peace and helping your fellow (poor) man, neither policies of which are actively pursued by the 'God-fearing, Christian' right. Does this mean Christianity is still to blame for anti-poor, pro-war policies? I just feel like it's a little too easy to tie religions to bad real world results because of its overuse/missuse as a propaganda tool.

You're kidding, right? Can you really not understand the difference between "People who are persecuted for a particular reason who also happen to be Christian" and "People who are persecuted BECAUSE they are Christian?" I know you're not dumb, so I can't quite figure out your angle here unless it's just pure tendentiousness.

Maybe you should ask some Muslims about the subject of religious persecution.

it's just pure tendentiousness.

I prefer the term "fact-checker"

(on Scientology)

This isnt that far off organized christanity, guys. Actually, its pretty much the same.

― if i could fly this place would be a mid-90s r kelly jam (history mayne), Thursday, June 2, 2011 4:23 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Dumb

lol

As a nice atheist I'm sick to death of being bundled in with militant atheists. Not all of us are going around hassling religious people ffs.

Who is doing this?

dawkins

He goes around militantly hassling religious people? Seems more like he goes around giving talks wherever he's invited and religious people show up to hassle him. Unless I'm missing something. Does he show up uninvited at churches or something?

oh i didnt realize

Ppl are gonna do what they're gonna do, and they're gonna justify it with whatever they have. Dawkins just seems to be another voice playing the blame game. Which is fine if you enjoy juvenile football-style games of "My team's better than yours!"

I only give him slightly more cred than "Videogames make kids become mass murderers" people.

He goes around militantly hassling religious people? Seems more like he goes around giving talks wherever he's invited and religious people show up to hassle him. Unless I'm missing something. Does he show up uninvited at churches or something?

― unmetalled world (wk), Thursday, June 2, 2011 9:40 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark

remote hassling

"Ppl are gonna do what they're gonna do, and they're gonna justify it with whatever they have."

Have to disagree with this -- something as simple as changing the heights of the snacks in a convenience store can
profoundly change people's food choices, so why couldn't a religious framework do even more?

Could videogames make kids into mass murderers? Well, it can make kids into crack drone pilots
who can outmaneuver experienced pilots many years their senior. They can abstract away the unpleasantness
of killing people, and allow pilots to work at it as a 9-5 job and go home to their families every day,
normalizing what would otherwise be aberrant behavior.

It's weird how right-wing objection to video games and rap-metal becomes untenable when they are embraced by
the military. Tipper Gore's on her own, now!

something as simple as changing the heights of the snacks in a convenience store can profoundly change people's food choices, so why couldn't a religious framework do even more?

if you look up, you might be able to catch a glimpse of the point sailing over your head

like, we've already been over on this thread (multiple times even) how religion - just like any other worldview or ideology (including scientific rationalism) - gets used to justify murder, oppression, war, discrimination, etc. this does not mean that religion CAUSES these things, just that it's a handy cover for them. history bears this out pretty authoritatively.

i'm just regretting this slim jim i just et
(macho man RIP)

if only you had followed the prohibition in Leviticus against delicious dried meat products

like, we've already been over on this thread (multiple times even) how religion - just like any other worldview or ideology (including scientific rationalism) - gets used to justify murder, oppression, war, discrimination, etc. this does not mean that religion CAUSES these things, just that it's a handy cover for them. history bears this out pretty authoritatively.

― metally ill (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, June 2, 2011 11:53 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

religion more than scientific rationalism iirc; and well, scientific rationalism has also CAUSED some pretty defensible things. a lot of people say the religious worldview led to great art etc but that would have happened anyway.

disagree on that end, too. much harder to be inspired without some kind of divine muse/drive.
take that away and all you have left are funky neurological disorders.

francis fukuyama sez the church laid the ground for proper rule of law in europe, or something. that new book of his is an interesting prospect

disagree on that end, too. much harder to be inspired without some kind of divine muse/drive.
take that away and all you have left are funky neurological disorders.

ok man whatever

religion more than scientific rationalism iirc

lol scientific rationalism gave us the 20th century, the century of genocide on a previously unimagined scale thx to automated weaponry, the atomic bomb, etc

i've said this before but the 20th, end to end, by the numbers, was less death-y than the 19th

totally crazy that geometrically more people around might lead to more people getting killed

scientific rationalism is more than 100 years old iirc

pretty sure hundreds of thousands of people didn't die in a single night of firebombing at any point in the 19th century, much less at the hands of religion

and yeah scientific rationalism didn't start in the 20th century (they had guns in the 19th century FYI), it just reached its apex then in terms of enabling-total-destruction-of-life-on-the-planet

religion more than scientific rationalism iirc

lol scientific rationalism gave us the 20th century, the century of genocide on a previously unimagined scale thx to automated weaponry, the atomic bomb, etc

― metally ill (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, June 3, 2011 12:11 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

think you're confusing scientific rationalism-as-worldview (in your terms) with products of science

or just being thick

i suppose the weapons used by the conquistadors were also the products of scientific rationalism so

think you're confusing scientific rationalism-as-worldview (in your terms) with products of science

fair enough, can't really have the former without the latter now can ye tho

More than nukes, AK47s, I'd say in terms of disruptive technologies responsible for humans harming themselves where they wouldn't have otherwise.

Maybe it's asking too much for Dawkins to read or engage with, say, "Dialectic of Enlightenment"--but i think his advocacy of atheism would go down easier with at least some sensitivity to how his worldview may be limited.

Maybe won't convince many here, but Gianni Vattimo has made an interesting case that religion (specifically Christianity) actually cleared the ground for modern western society (meaning atheism as well).

Scholars now believe that, among the various contributing factors, epidemic disease was the overwhelming cause of the population decline of the Native Americans because of their lack of immunity to new diseases brought from Europe.

btw

yeah but all the aks in the world can't beat, like, vaccination. i mean, they haven't, is the thing.

Maybe won't convince many here, but Gianni Vattimo has made an interesting case that religion (specifically Christianity) actually cleared the ground for modern western society (meaning atheism as well).

this is literally the least mind-blowing thing i have ever read. where do you even begin?

^^in regards to conquistadores

xp

Well maybe it's not mind blowing, but it puts the lie to the idea that religion and science must engage in never ending mortal combat.

i love 'specifically Christianity', like 'oh i was going to say hinduism, that would have looked dumb huh'

good point on the conquistadors shakey. im sure they're just misunderstood.

it puts the lie to the idea that religion and science must engage in never ending mortal combat.

eventually in developed societies religion becomes what it (mostly) is in the uk, a (mostly) harmless pastime for a small minority of people. so i basically agree there.

reminds me of the jared diamond point that natural selection in europe became mostly about just being immune to all the diseases that were prevalent in large centres of population, being smart not as crucial to yr ability to propagate as it was elsewhere

Would you accept or dismiss the idea that what constitutes a "developed society" is perhaps derived from a set of cultural assumptions rather than some sort of historical teleology tho? Genuinely curious about this. Is technology the barometer of "advancement"?

Maybe tech is related insofar as higher tech reduces the time/energy needed to get food?

Conquistadors with AK47s would be like a non-stop Slayer record.

higher tech reduces the time/energy needed

I dunno about this, tbh