The official thread for Lord Of The Rings - The Return Of The King [LOTR ROTK TROTK ROK] (NOW CONTAINS SPOILERS)

And for my money, "The Man Who Killed Don Quixote"
would likely have been
as brilliant as the rest of them, had it lived.
I mentioned Gilliam because his fantasies (_Baron Von
Mucnchausen_, _The Fisher King_) have been stellar, and
Scorsese because _Gangs Of New York_ had a dreamlike,
mythical visuals that would have suited Middle Earth quite
nicely.

Er, I fear we have nothing further to talk about here if this is the example given. (The argument that one can take Tolkien's example in order to myth-create in different styles and approaches, however, is perfectly fine in and of itself, though the sense that a later/different approach will automatically be superior as a result seems forced.)

Sometimes I think the only reason Tolkien is considered the best
is that he's usually the first (or only) fantasy author that
people read. Of course, there's nothing wrong with holding this
opinion (Tolkien's the best) but I strongly disagree.

I only mentioned _SOS_ because it was the first book to come out
of Tolkien's tradition, not because I consider it the best.
Still, it was addictive and hard to put down, qualities that are
of utmost importance in fiction. In contrast, I found Tolkien's
books to be long, long slogs indeed.

If you're talking about Williams's fantasy trilogy, I found that to be astoundingly dull, much more so than Tolkien has ever been to me -- it was overarching but overstuffed, a couple of great characters aside. Kay in contrast I'm deeply fond of but the Fionavar books were a formal exercise in comparison to the alternate histories since, all of which have shown a much greater sense of range. Kay's ability to foreground moral ambivalence is indeed wonderful but I think this obscures Tolkien's own abilities in this field, something which I'm sensing you are dismissing all too readily.

(xpost Ned, Robin Hobb is really, really great and George Martin is even better. You should give them both a look.)

I actually have the Martin series building up 'on hold' for a read when it's done. Hobb I've not heard of, though, thanks!

Wot Dan said about Brooks, many times over.

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My favorite part was by far the bit where Denethor was eating, having Pippen sing to him, while the gondor soldiers rode back out. It was kind of heavy heanded, but he syned the sounds & visuals so well that it came out very nicely.

But what was up with the dragging on of the endings? I know it's all in the book, but it felt like it was really dragging along. Although it was neat to the ring that Gandalf had on his hand as they left on the boat. It was kind of cool that they included that, even without calling it out by saying anything about it.

Lyra very much OTM with the Denethor/Pippin sequence juxtaposed with Faramir's charge. And I was thinking of Gandalf's ring tonight, noticed it too!

Just got back from my second showing. Shelob's second attack really is fucking unsettling.

the slate review correctly identifies the beacon sequence as the moment where the film really takes off.

i thought legolas' little escapade was an explicit star wars reference!

In the extended Two Towers it is talked about a bit more -- Saruman identifies it as the Ring of Barahir, indicating his descent from Isildur. That is indeed part of the backstory in Tolkien's work -- to try and keep it quick (ha) Barahir was a Man in the First Age who assisted the Elves in their struggle against Morgoth; the ring was given to him by an Elf lord who he had specifically rescued in battle. Through Barahir's son Beren and then through the line of kings and lords of Numenor the ring became a symbol of descent and kingship.

There were pacing issues and the lengthy endings (whilst cock on for the book) dragged a touch. Also odd that Arwen didn't want to see her Dad off on the boat. There also seemed something a bit off with Gollum at the end, I always remember him being a bit satisfied with his own death / destruction of the ring which did not quite come across (the perilous escape from the cracks seems a little bit overblown too).

All in all though thoroughly satisfying.

I remember this being such a powerful moment in the book. I haven't seen the clip yet and was hoping this was going to be included in the final film. Yes, NOW I really want to watch it!!!

Can't wait to see it.

Lego-lass on the oilyfunt was the best

the Theodyn/Gandalf "what does your heart tell you?" line was the BAD Star Wars ref

has no-one mentioned how fucking great the 360 degress pans were?

fear not Madchen, the Shelob bits are absolutely stunning

the ghosts reminded me a lot of POTC more than anything else - i thought they were fine

biggest irk = no Saruman

when Aragorn and everyone kneel down before the hobbits for a split second i 'wished' it would cut to the fanfare end theme and the 'Directed by George Lucas' caption on starfield, haha

also very annoyed that we got trailers for the new Farrelly Brothers film (OH DEAR GOD IT LOOKS SO FUCKING TERRIBLE I WANT TO PUNCH THOSE STUPID PEOPLE) and the new Mask film (it's a baby.....a BABY.....) but not Spiderman 2 or that one with JUde Law and Nicole Kidman which might be good

has no-one mentioned how fucking great the 360 degress pans were?

Damn straight. Aimed for the epic and nailed it.

More coherent thoughts later tonight, though I'll probably chime in more throughout the day.

I meant the latter more, but the Smeagol origin I wasn't crazy about; something about the way it was shot made it seem a little awkward to me (maybe because most of it was in close-up). also, when Smeagol's buddy gets pulled underwater I thought it looked pretty silly.

I thought the whole sequence worked even better second time around -- the way it's edited and presented (and narrated for that matter) goes against much of the film style elsewhere, it nicely conveys a sense of how Gollum isn't part of/much for the world if you like. As for the close-ups, that's been a hallmark of all three movies, surely -- most of the sequence itself was directed by Fran Walsh.

You mean at the start of the film? At the end of Two Towers it shows the two of them embracing and being thankful for getting through Helm's Deep in one piece, so in ways that moment had already happened, if you like.

I guess travelling sequences woulda made the whole thing even longer though (though I guess they wouldn't have to)

of course it wz terrific, fite-wise especially

they exactly didn't go with my personal reading of gollum's triumph over sauron, but it wasn't ruled out either

(oh yes: when sauron's eye turned north to the gates of mordor, it was actually turning from north-ish to east, unless they moved orodruin)

Maybe by way of Rocketeer and the Blackhawk comics. I'm a sucker for art-deco steampunk, so I'll probably go see it even though I expect it to thoroughly suck.

The next Pitch Black film, Chronicles of Riddick(should I see the first one?)

Ehhhhh... A couple of good scenes, but mostly crap.

he kinda sorta intends to fall into the cracks of doom cz that way no one else gets it - there's a bit in the book, in the gollum vs smeagol dialogues, where one of them says something (i completely forget what at the moment) which wd be of relevance in re: intentionality at that point

Yeah, they were playing around with that more than once! Maybe Barad-dur's secret power lies in the fact it's the biggest and most badass trailerpark home ever.

plus

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oh, yes haha also: sauron's eye = activity out of a tex avery cartoon once everything goes wrong!

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I liked the sense of scale and comparitive scale, so when the Rohirrim arrive at Minas Tirith you can see both that they have an enormous army and that they're complete fucked.

The dead are the Ents of this film. Much as they are in the book, in fairness.

I'm looking forward to the DVD, with more Saruman and Bruce Spence as the Voice of Sauron.

The ending was both quite long and much shorter than it could have been. It and the scenes outside Mount Doom do keep the sense of "normal folk don't always come back from war the same".

And it keeps what's probably my favourite last line in any book.

Heckle #1: I liked the look of disgust Theoden gives Aragorn when he left him alone with Arwen. I turned to my friend and whispered "Elf-fucker!". This was only improved by it turning out to be Elrond :)

Heckle #2: After Frodo says goodbye to Sam and turns to Pippin "Which one are you again?"