White trick-or-treaters in blackface: C/D?

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it was a joke alex!! for what its worth i think youre less racist than most of ilm

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 14:47 (twenty years ago)

"Hello, Dave! Wanna buy some pegs?"

― Papa Lazarou, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 14:47 (twenty years ago)

Sorry, I'm feeling a little bit defensive today.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 14:48 (twenty years ago)

but youre testin me with "dated", like miniature black servants holding lanterns in your front yard are soooo last week huh??

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 14:49 (twenty years ago)

I have to ask, are the connotations of blackface still quite clear and understandable in the US? Because in here, if some kid would do it, it could be seen as mildly stupid, but not necessarily particularly racist, since we don't have a history of minstrelsy or anything. I mean, if someone would dress up as Hitler, the message would rather clear to everyone, but is this the case with blacking up?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 14:49 (twenty years ago)

holy shit-
http://www.amberjacklanding.com/basement/images/Halloween/Hw78/78hw14.jpg
Roehl Johnson as a lawn jockey. Pushing the political correctness envelope before we knew there was an envelope. Roehl held this pose throughout the entire evening.
http://www.amberjacklanding.com/basement/halloween78_pg2.htm

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 14:50 (twenty years ago)

tuomas i really dont need another lecture about how your 95% white country is less racist than mine

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 14:51 (twenty years ago)

fucks sake what?? my kid would not even think about that shit, anymore than he would be goin trick-or-treating as hitler or a damn rape victim

the fact that you even find these comparible is lamentable. the kids were dressing up as a character they (presumably) admire. a guy at Optimo this weekend was dressed up as Don King - his costume was hysterical.

― jed_ (jed), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 14:53 (twenty years ago)

Trife, I'm not saying we're less racist (probably the other way around), but that certain things deemed as racist in the US don't seem so offensive to me because of the different context.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 14:54 (twenty years ago)

comparable in offense not motivation

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 14:55 (twenty years ago)

Maybe the people who own the lawn jockeys in our town think it's fine and a tribute ("They marked the underground railroad and helped runaway slaves!"), but the connotation isn't so positive for a lot of other people.

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 14:55 (twenty years ago)

you could admire a rape victim too, for their courage in standing up to their attacker, but its not an appropiate halloween costume

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 14:57 (twenty years ago)

We don't have a history of minstrelsy because before the nineties, we had a black population practically the size of zero. Which meant that, up until the eighties, it was possible to sell liquorice with this symbol:

http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/houtsone/lakupekka.jpg

(x-post)

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 14:58 (twenty years ago)

tuomas is there commonly accepted shit in america that seems racist to you based on standards of your country? like brits who are baffled by apu on the simpsons

xpost ahahhahahahahahha

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:00 (twenty years ago)

Also, I don't think you can separate motivation from the offense. Context is a helluva big thing when it comes to racism.

(x-post)

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:01 (twenty years ago)

Can I reiterate for all of the white people on this thread that there is a gigantic non-negligible semantic difference between dressing up as a famous person who happens to be of a different color than you and dressing up as an explicitly offensive character, like a lawn jockey? Unless, of course, you think that Ben Wallace is the modern equivalent of a lawn jockey, which says a lot more about your perceptions of race than it does about the person who dressed up like him.

― Dan (Surrounded By White Madness) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:01 (twenty years ago)

(And yes, I know that many black people would disagree with me.)

― Dan (The Point Remains) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:01 (twenty years ago)

Dan, that what was what I was trying to say in my first post.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:02 (twenty years ago)

dan i think the point is that blackface is de facto offensive

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:02 (twenty years ago)

which i agree is debateable but i think most americans would agree

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:03 (twenty years ago)

Dan, how do you feel about someone dressing up as Don King?

dan doesn't seem to agree with you!

― jed_ (jed), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:03 (twenty years ago)

i mean you can talk about sincere admiration all you like but in the end you come off like those dicks who want to "reclaim" the swastika- just let it go, dudes

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:04 (twenty years ago)

OH NO DAN DOESNT AGREE WITH ME

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:05 (twenty years ago)

but youre testin me with "dated", like miniature black servants holding lanterns in your front yard are soooo last week huh??

No, I meant literally dated....as, to the best of my knowledge, they don't make them (the actual lawn ornaments) anymore.....though drive around Long Island and you'll still spot a few, not to mention in midtown Manhattan.....

http://orient-express.lbwa.verio.net/onyc/images/220images/onyc_220_entrance.jpg

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:05 (twenty years ago)

Actually, I'm wrong....evidently they do still make'em. Apologies.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:06 (twenty years ago)

Obviously a kid wanting to look as much like Ben Wallace as possible is different from a yard with a burning cross (or a lawn jockey), but it's all part of the same issue.

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:07 (twenty years ago)

tuomas is there commonly accepted shit in america that seems racist to you based on standards of your country?

No, probably not. Since most of our ethnic minorities have been here for thirty years or less, I assume American culture is far more sensitive to racial imagery as related to, say, Asian or African people. We do have seem older ethnic groups such as the Sami and the Roma people, but they obviously don't show up at all in American culture.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:08 (twenty years ago)

Maybe the kid just liked Ben Wallace.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:09 (twenty years ago)

i mentally associate un-pc blackface halloween costums with white guys who whine about how they cant say the n-word or how theres no national association for the advancement of WHITE people

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:10 (twenty years ago)

OH NO DAN DOESNT AGREE WITH ME
-- _ (...), November 1st, 2005. (later)

i don't know if he does but, if so, it does call into question your use of the phrase "De Facto".

― jed_ (jed), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:10 (twenty years ago)

ned dont bring your dopey 'who me??' approach to race relations on this thread

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:11 (twenty years ago)

Maybe the kid will see Amos and Andy and think, "Hey, neat."

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:11 (twenty years ago)

dan i think the point is that blackface is de facto offensive

Blackface is de facto offensive. My issue is this: should a child dressed up as Ben Wallace for Halloween be considered blackface? Exactly what does that say about how you view people like Ben Wallace that that was your first reaction to seeing the child? In my mind, this is the racist liberal issue rearing its ugly head again.

― Dan (Excruciating Back Pain) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:11 (twenty years ago)

your reading comprehension is de facto impaired-

dan i think the point is that blackface is de facto offensive
-- _ (...), November 1st, 2005.

which i agree is debateable but i think most americans would agree
-- _ (...), November 1st, 2005.

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:12 (twenty years ago)

Obviously a kid wanting to look as much like Ben Wallace as possible is different from a yard with a burning cross (or a lawn jockey), but it's all part of the same issue.

Er, I'd argue that in the kid's mind it isn't.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:12 (twenty years ago)

(xxx-post)

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:12 (twenty years ago)

dan do you honestly think its racist to see a white person in blackface makeup and associate it with previous white people in blackface makeup? i mean i (mostly) dont have the same problem with white kids in pre-made rubber halloween masks of black characters (couple years ago i remember larry fishburne from the matrix with big with kids black AND white)

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:13 (twenty years ago)

with big = was big

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:14 (twenty years ago)

yes we all live in a context free paradise where you can act as racially offensive as you want as long as you dont realize it!! its certainly not any white persons duty to learn about such things and understand why theyre offensive!!!

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:15 (twenty years ago)

Exactly which portion of "should a child dressed up as Ben Wallace for Halloween be considered blackface" was ambiguous, Ethan?

Yes, I think that that entire line of thought is incredibly dehumanising to black people because the point SHOULD be that we are all people and therefore should get treated the same. There shouldn't be anything special or taboo about a child wanting to dress up as a highly visible and incredibly popular basketball player. Basically, by blanket-calling every single instance where someone wears makeup darker than their skin tone "blackface", you are helping to peretuate the racial divide in this country.

Finally, don't fucking tell me what I should find offensive, white boy.

― Dan (Don't Try That Shit With Me) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:18 (twenty years ago)

tuomas, why does the fact finland had no black population pre-whenever somehow make racist things less racist?

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:19 (twenty years ago)

so in america black guys aren't allowed to have people dressed up as them in halloween? seems pretty racist to me.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:19 (twenty years ago)

I should've come up with a term for innocent, inoffensive, well-meaning makeup for children that makes them look as if their racial background is different.

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:20 (twenty years ago)

So if they wanted to dress up like Ben Wallace because they like him, but they didn't paint their faces, it would be OK...? But then it would be a really lame costume. So you're saying white kids can only dress up like white people for Halloween.

And would it be offensive for a girl to dress up like a man?

face-ah.

xposts. Dan, Ken, OTM

― when something smacks of something (dave225.3), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:20 (twenty years ago)

Ethan, I know you like to think of yourself as ILE's Champion Of The Black Man but I'm not going to play Bigger Thomas for you.

― Dan (Excruciating Back Pain) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:21 (twenty years ago)

dan are you cool with white kids using the n-word? is that ok cuz we're all people and should be treated the same?

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:22 (twenty years ago)

Trife, is why I said you can't separate motivation from the offense. Ignorance of historical connotations is of course rather stupid, but still, no image is racist de facto, only with the context. A white kid dressed up as a black sportsman is offensive to those who associate it with minstrelsy, but what we're discussing is - is that everybody?

(xxxx-post)

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:22 (twenty years ago)

dan for fucks sake im not saying what you should or should not be offended by, but youre crazy if you dont think a huge majority of americans would find this inexcusable

― _, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:23 (twenty years ago)

>I observed (w/ some mild hostility) another white kid wearing a Negro League baseball hat!<

You know, I've been at ballparks where these are given away to all kinds of people...

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:26 (twenty years ago)

no image is racist de facto, only with the context

http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/houtsone/lakupekka.jpg

in which actual context is this not offensive?

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:26 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 956 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

No purple??

― tokyo rosemary, Monday, 30 March 2015 03:34 (eleven years ago)

six months pass...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Musical_notes.svg/30px-Musical_notes.svg.png It's the most wonderful time of the year...http://www.angelfire.com/in/sassyshideout/images/SongListAniMusicNotesR.gif

http://i.imgur.com/EG0JZOJ.jpg

http://www.fox10tv.com/story/30349647/decatur-teacher-apologizes-for-wearing-black-face

― pplains, Wednesday, 28 October 2015 02:35 (ten years ago)

Honestly, I'm just about as offended that she thinks she's pulling off Kim Kardashian.

― pplains, Wednesday, 28 October 2015 03:38 (ten years ago)

three months pass...

Took me a second. They're dressed as hieroglyphics, not the Egyptians themselves...

http://i.imgur.com/s1OtdMZ.jpg

... but boy are they walking the line there.

― pplains, Friday, 5 February 2016 22:35 (ten years ago)

one month passes...

From

http://i.imgur.com/8MkW5Ut.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/89QkeKs.jpg

― pplains, Sunday, 3 April 2016 01:15 (ten years ago)

i've been watching all in the family episode by episode from season 5 forward and hoo boy, some of the places this show goes are pure wtf and a good heads up as to how the culture has shifted over the past forty years... the key joke in the "Gloria has a baby" two parter is that Archie leaves his lodge's minstrel show in blackface to get to the hospital.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMlpCLPCtx4

― ulysses, Monday, 4 April 2016 14:37 (ten years ago)

NB the series of rape jokes at 5.40

― ulysses, Monday, 4 April 2016 14:39 (ten years ago)

one year passes...

Usually days like today are prime for mining horrible examples of white trick-or-treaters in blackface. However, it's just gotten worse and more depressing in the past year.

I know, "When was it not depressing?" I guess you'd hope things would improve with each passing year, not break records for how low the bar keeps getting dropped.

Recently read a good thread on social media from an ILXor, listing some of the worst recent incidents. And it's not just the tastelessness that hits you, it's how brazen and open these assholes are about pulling it off these days. It's almost as if they feel emboldened to do so.

That said, I enjoyed these fellas. Hope the guy on the right didn't get confused with being a white guy wearing a dreadlock wig though I personally would've appreciated the meta on that one.

https://i.imgur.com/BmjljUp.jpg

― pplains, Saturday, 4 November 2017 18:44 (eight years ago)

djp has a roundup of this year's examples on fb

― mookieproof, Saturday, 4 November 2017 18:55 (eight years ago)

^ Yeah. That ILXor.

― pplains, Saturday, 4 November 2017 19:13 (eight years ago)

That picture created so much reverse racism whining.

― the Hannah Montana of the Korean War (DJP), Saturday, 4 November 2017 21:36 (eight years ago)

reverse racism whining

thereby confirming the whiner's steadfast and unshakeable belief that whites in blackface are racists. amirite?

― A is for (Aimless), Saturday, 4 November 2017 21:40 (eight years ago)

lol at khakis

― Chocolate-covered gummy bears? Not ruling those lil' guys out. (ulysses), Sunday, 5 November 2017 19:28 (eight years ago)

one year passes...

American politicians go blackface.

But not Canadians: https://time.com/5680759/justin-trudeau-brownface-photo/

― pplains, Thursday, 19 September 2019 02:21 (six years ago)

What the fuck is wrong with all these people?

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 19 September 2019 02:45 (six years ago)

Milkshake Trudeau is Racist.

― a bevy of supermodels, musicians and Lena Dunham (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 19 September 2019 03:51 (six years ago)

I can’t believe he did it so many times! And he was 29!! Shameful.

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 19 September 2019 14:01 (six years ago)

nine months pass...

https://www.vulture.com/2020/06/blackface-tv-episodes-scenes-removed-streaming.html

― brooklyn suicide cult (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 23:20 (five years ago)

NBC was a big fan of blackface gags

― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 23:27 (five years ago)

They were also the network that played The Apprentice. Something not right been up with them for awhile.

― pplains, Wednesday, 1 July 2020 00:34 (five years ago)

Countdown to the discovery of long-missing The Apprentice: Blackface Challenge tapes...

― "...And the Gods Socially Distanced" (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 02:10 (five years ago)

Whole network is rotten from the Today show hosts to the late night wars. Who woulda thunk a broadcasting company owned by G.E. would be so awful.

Oh, they're owned by Comcast now. yes, yes, such an improvement.

Anyway. Halloween this year is going to be horrible. I am looking forward to the McCloskey costumes though.

― pplains, Wednesday, 1 July 2020 02:23 (five years ago)

two years pass...

Er, I've just seen the Bananarama video for "I Want You Back" (with the woman who replaced Siobhan Fahey who no-one remembers)...

― Maggot Bairn (Tom D.), Sunday, 16 April 2023 09:32 (three years ago)

Beginning of Culture Club's Do You Really Want To Hurt Me video is another one.

― the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Sunday, 16 April 2023 09:40 (three years ago)

with the woman who replaced Siobhan Fahey who no-one remembers

some of us will always remember the Shillelagh Sisters

― he thinks it's chinese money (soref), Sunday, 16 April 2023 09:58 (three years ago)

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