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Jesus Fucking Christ: evangelical bigwig opposed gay marriage "because it takes the dirt and danger out of clandestine sex with rent-a-men"

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Xpost to Shakey:

True.

But Old Testament the story of Soddom and Gommorah is terribly misinterprited as a story about God hating teh ghey when its really a story about God punishing bloodthirsty rapists (hetero or homo).

― researching ur life (grady), Monday, 6 November 2006 21:32 (nineteen years ago)

oh man the Jack Chick Sodom & Gomorrah tract is SO UNBELIEVABLY AWESOME in its depiction of masculine angels fearing for teh homosexual rape...

but I agree in general abt the narrow interpretation of the story as being specifically homosexuality. Tho I believe there are several other OT passages commonly cited as "proof" that god hates fags. I forget where, Leviticus...? so many OT "laws"...

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 6 November 2006 21:44 (nineteen years ago)

specifically [about] homosexuality

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 6 November 2006 21:45 (nineteen years ago)

ah yes, good ol Leviticus:

Leviticus 18:22 "You [masculine] shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a male as a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them."

Now Jesus, for his part, did explicitly deny the necessity to follow all the rules laid down in the OT, so you can ostensibly combine that rejection of Jewish moral traditions with his "hey I love everybody" attitude and extrapolate from there that he woulda been cool with Rip Taylor or whoever, but I think we should all be able to agree that that's stretching it quite a bit.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 6 November 2006 21:48 (nineteen years ago)

nice summation of Bible vs. teh Gays here: http://www.bridges-across.org/ba/wink.htm

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 6 November 2006 21:51 (nineteen years ago)

ew at "stretching it quite a bit"

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Monday, 6 November 2006 21:52 (nineteen years ago)

xxxxpost:

It should also be noted that there is a considerably large movment within Evangelical churches to admit that the ways in which the church has dealt with honosexuals hasn't been Christ-Like©. This movment seeks some kind of reparations with the Gay community and encourages openly homosexual families into thier churches in order to treat them as Jesus would have and perhaps gain understanding from them... but still defines homosexuality as a sin only redeemable through a life in Christ.

It's a nice sentiment, but if you're only going half way, just fucking forget about it.

Shakey OTM re: Chick tract on Soddom and Gommorah.

Re: other OT passages, yes there's at least one in Leviticus. There's a hilarious "Open Letter to Dr. Laura" floating around the net where someone goes "gee, thanks for setting me straight on Leviticus' commandments regarding homosexuality. Can you set me straight on a few more?" ...and goes on to ask her stance on shearing sheep, disposal of moldy clothing, stoning of adulterers, and other things Leviticus goes into inane depth on. quite teh funny.

― researching ur life (grady), Monday, 6 November 2006 21:52 (nineteen years ago)

(sp)

― researching ur life (grady), Monday, 6 November 2006 21:53 (nineteen years ago)

My fantasy scenerio was more along the lines of Haggard getting a divorce, dropping out of the spotlight for a number of years and then re-emerging as a homosexusal religious leader 100x more powerful than Vermont bishop guy.

v. gene, where's yo' POWAH?!?!??

threads like these almost make me glad i done grown up episcopalian.

― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 6 November 2006 21:54 (nineteen years ago)

goatse.cchrist

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Monday, 6 November 2006 21:55 (nineteen years ago)

Dr. Laura and Leviticus

― researching ur life (grady), Monday, 6 November 2006 21:55 (nineteen years ago)

threads like these almost make me glad i done grown up episcopalian.

They make me completely glad I did!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 6 November 2006 21:56 (nineteen years ago)

"I would like to sell my daughter into slavery..."

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 6 November 2006 21:57 (nineteen years ago)

Leviticusalso has tons of utterly ignored prohibitions, like against wearing garments made of two diff fabrics, cuz hello, they were made SPECIFICALLY FOR / BY JEWS OF 5000 YEARS AGO.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:01 (nineteen years ago)

That Dr. Laura is really funny.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:02 (nineteen years ago)

The party line on Leviticus is that modern day xians are responsible for defining which parts were essential for life a few millenia back and which relate to MORAL CONCERNS that trancend time and culture.

Guess which column "lying with a man as a woman does" falls in to????

― researching ur life (grady), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:04 (nineteen years ago)

i grew up presbyterian(still considered myself as such, more or less), and chose sunday school over the sermons.

― kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:05 (nineteen years ago)

KF-

(not to be read as snarky at all)

what does that have to do with what we're talking about? Is it that you relate more to a group discussion that listening to a speech?

― researching ur life (grady), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:07 (nineteen years ago)

Wait, so Leviticus was totally cool with lesbians?

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:07 (nineteen years ago)

apparently.

― researching ur life (grady), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:07 (nineteen years ago)

They used part of that Dr. Laura thing in an early "West Wing" episode, didn't they?

― Django Blowhardt (Rock Hardy), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:08 (nineteen years ago)

"Thou shalt not, as a woman, lie with a woman as a man lies with a woman unless thou art on Myspace"

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:09 (nineteen years ago)

Shakey, I'm referring more to the obvious Jesus habit of welcoming all people into the church and often emphasizing that it's the lowest among them who deserve the most compassion, etc. (Though I will grant you that in a Biblical context it's possible that his examples on this front -- prostitutes, tax collectors, lepers, etc. -- may have been examples of "poor social standing" more so than "moral abominations.")

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:09 (nineteen years ago)

So wait prostitutes have poor social standing, but they are on morally good ground?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:10 (nineteen years ago)

prostitutes and tax collectors were both viewed as hugely immoral. OTM though.

― researching ur life (grady), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:10 (nineteen years ago)

Is it that you relate more to a group discussion that listening to a speech?

pretty much, yeah. especially by choosing the authoritative leanings of my high school sunday school teacher(an engineer for GM/Delphi) than the increasingly authoritarian/conservative leanings of our pastor.

but i mention this things just as background for me.

― kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:11 (nineteen years ago)

ages ago when i wz researching something abt leviticus for this, i came across a website which quoted a conservative rabbi who glossed "lying with a man as a woman does = abomination" as an extension of the injunction against "spilling seed on the ground", and argued that the appropriate atonement for gay men and their seed-spilling ways therefore was to ADOPT CHILDREN!

the website isn't there any more and i didn't take proper notes abt who the rabbi was, or what his school was

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:11 (nineteen years ago)

So wait prostitutes have poor social standing, but they are on morally good ground?

Well the Old Testament is totally packed with prostitutes, so I can't claim to be clear on when exactly that became on par with an "abomination." I mean, through those first dozen books or whatever, the Bible has more to say about the filthiness of menstruation than on anything having to do with whether prostitution is right or wrong.

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:14 (nineteen years ago)

"spilling seed on the ground",

oh yeah, Onan. Another example of God obviously stacking His book up with events that you can totally misinterpret whichever way you want if you wish to force whatever doctrine on your kids. And let us thank the Victorians to re-enforcing that.

― kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:16 (nineteen years ago)

The seed spilling thing has been pretty widley confirmed within the theological community as literal and not metaphorical. The metaphorical angle was only brought in by scholars frustrated with the fact that the Bible had not one single mention of masturbation, let alone a commandment against it.

― researching ur life (grady), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:17 (nineteen years ago)

yes lets ban menstruation and acknowledge it as the moral failing it is

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:17 (nineteen years ago)

(sarcastic ROFLZ x-postiness)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:17 (nineteen years ago)

You know, I can think of one deeply ironic thing those scholars could have done that might have left hem less frustrated...

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:18 (nineteen years ago)

I am now wishing that the Bible be advertised/sold with a "packed with prostitutes!" sticker on the front

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:18 (nineteen years ago)

beat me to it.

― researching ur life (grady), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:19 (nineteen years ago)

literal = spilled seed ACTUALLY ON THE GROUND?

vs

metaphorical = masturbation into a tissue/mouth/apple pie?

(sorry grady, is that what you mean?)

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:21 (nineteen years ago)

I assume "metaphorical" as in "had sex with any old thing, liberally distributing his genetically coded material wantonly and without care"

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:22 (nineteen years ago)

literal = OH NOES, I SPILLED MY PUMPKIN SEEDS
metaphorical = OH NOES, I PLEASURED MY GENITALIA UNTIL ZYGOTES WERE ISSUED

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:24 (nineteen years ago)

Leviticus 18:22 "You [masculine] shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

so frot's OK?

― cheshycat (chëshy f cat), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:24 (nineteen years ago)

Onan's mistake was pulling out, right? He was supposed to take his dead brother's wife as his own, but declined to actually knock her up. (Hence I like to imagine "on the ground" is an ancient Hebrew euphemism.)

xpost No, seriously, the Old Testament is chock full of rape, dismemberment, warfare, slavery, intensely homosocial love, polygamy, prostitution ... I mean, if Paul Verhoeven directed a literal adaptation, it's certainly not anything you'd let your kids watch (which incidentally OMG, how can we help make that happen?).

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:24 (nineteen years ago)

I meant that it is in refernce to agriculture and has no sexual connotations.

xpost

― researching ur life (grady), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:25 (nineteen years ago)

Leviticus 18:22 "Bros before hoes"

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:25 (nineteen years ago)

literal = spilled seed ACTUALLY ON THE GROUND?

yeah, literally. Story of Onan, dude. Instead of impregnating his brother's widow, he pulled out and shot it all over her lower back tattoo.

― kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:26 (nineteen years ago)

write a script, nabisco

― gbx (skowly), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:26 (nineteen years ago)

Leviticus 18:22 "Bros before hoes"

That explains Huntington Beach, at least.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:26 (nineteen years ago)

wait wait nevermind i'm totally off here. disregard everything ive said about the seed spilling business. KF is right.

― researching ur life (grady), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:26 (nineteen years ago)

Even about the lower back tattoo?

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:27 (nineteen years ago)

Like I said, Huntington Beach.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:28 (nineteen years ago)

Onan's sister-in-law wore low cut jeans?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:29 (nineteen years ago)

I think scripture is vague as to that effect.

xpost

― researching ur life (grady), Monday, 6 November 2006 22:29 (nineteen years ago)

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