Shall we anticpate the AMC series "Breaking Bad"? I think I may.

imo the s2 finale was very much of a piece with the wacky authorial nature of what came before

I felt sort of the same way about the end of season two, it was too much of a punctuation mark, too much of a SEE??

Season 3 on the other hand is so wow, so much of a jump. Trudge on, some dude, trudge on.

I liked season 2 but yeah, season three was whole new heights. Definitely not a series of coincidences but a series of events that the characters set in motion themselves through their own good and horrible choices. What is also fun for me was to get a look at the fucked up motivations behind those choices.

when does the new season start? ever?

July 17th!

yeah when S3 comes out on DVD shortly before S4 starts i will probably try to rent it and catch up -- it's an aight show and has its merits, i'm just kind of frustrated at the moment at seeing all the ways it gets close to being a show i could love and then keeps daring me to hate it.

oh good, thanks!
i like it 90% of the time, less so when there are "clever" conceits like the stupid fly episode
i never liked it when the wire would try to be clever either
i think i basically hate when things are too clever. just let the story be without injecting cleverness into it all the damn time.

I loved that whole framing device for Season 2. It wasn't annoying to me at all--it resulted from the actions of the characters, so it wasn't arbitrary.

I think half the reason they did the fly episode was budget constraints.

yeah, that was a classic "bottle" episode

Loved the fly episode

Frankly, I found the whole secret underground lair conceit more than faintly ridiculous for the duration of S3. I thought it veered close to Nip/Tuck levels of ridiculousness. Hope S4 brings things back to reality at least a touch.

Really? You find it that outlandish?

Yes. Like, James Bond villain outlandish.

I mean, on a show with crazy homicidal mexican twins and shit?

s3 > s2 > s1 IMO. I'll be surprised if S4 manages to continue this trend. Really hope all concerned have a specific endgame in mind.

I remember reading that Vince Gilligan specifically told the writers to write themselves into corners in S3.

I don't really find the "underground lair" particularly outlandish considering what IRL drug traffickers are willing to do:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco_submarine

He has hummed and hawed a little about whether the fourth season will be the last. I hope it is though and they can go out on a high.

I remember reading that Vince Gilligan specifically told the writers to write themselves into corners in S3.

― Number None, Thursday, April 28, 2011 9:29 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark

lol if season 4 actually takes place in a corner

I loved that whole framing device for Season 2. It wasn't annoying to me at all--it resulted from the actions of the characters, so it wasn't arbitrary.

― shamefully blowable (latebloomer), Thursday, April 28, 2011 4:53 PM (45 minutes ago) Bookmark

the end of s2 resulted in part from the actions of a character who had only been introduced a few episodes earlier, whose relevant profession was revealed like a couple scenes earlier. i get that it was in part ABOUT that reveal but i feel like the less effort goes into 'planting the seeds' of something like that, the more arbitrary it ultimately feels.

no, the end resulted from Walt's actions (or inaction)

arbitrary? wasn't the wreckage featured at the beginning of many of the episodes in S2? (been a while since i've seen these episodes)

well sure, through a rube goldberg butterfly effect that the characters themselves have no way of being aware of, not in any way that demonstrates a sense of right and wrong and consequences. xpost

the only thing I found "outlandish" about the whole underground lair, and really the whole arrangement with (and value of) Heisenberg, was the idea that they were the first/only crew to pull something like that off. Am I supposed to believe that all meth in this country comes from junkies in RVs?

xxps

The only reason the coincidence seemed like a Rube Goldberg machine is because we knew the guy who was the main catalyst. That is how things happen in real life; we just can't see it that way we don't have the god's eye view of the narrative. Was the crank head finally getting fed up and dropping the ATM machine dropped on dude's head any less of a coincidence?

x-post to some dude

it's not very rube goldbergian at all! walt's inaction allows jane to die, which affects her dad, then plane goes crashy. not that crazy. dramatic maybe, but THAT'S BECAUSE IT's FUCKING DRAMA.

everything walter does has consequences, which seems to me to be the point.

that was just a thing that happened, there was no actual or even perceived coincidence to the ATM thing (xpost)

ultimately i get that there IS some degree of logic or at least thematic coherence to this stuff, i'm just saying the overall effect strikes me as dumm and faux 'deep'

we don't usually have the god's eye view in this show so when something like that happens it can yank you out of it; it did me. usually the big strength of the show for me is seeing the characters working through the consequences of fucked up shit and it usually feels natural, even inevitable. the final ep of S2 you could see the writers pulling it all together which is funny when it happens on seinfeld but not so much here. that said this is one of the very best shows ever made for television so... i'll allow it

ultimately i get that there IS some degree of logic or at least thematic coherence to this stuff, i'm just saying the overall effect strikes me as dumm and faux 'deep'

there are parts of s2 that i dislike, or find heavy-handed, & the plane crash as visual metaphor is probably too much but i think thematically its really good & interesting & works to push the audiences awareness beyond just sorta ~whats going on~ & really helps throw into relief how selfish & self-deluded walt's thinking is in a p powerful way...

idk i think the show gets morally interesting in late s2 & i like that its trying to make the point abt the sheer magnitude of 'unintended consequences'. also i think the moment where walt kills jane is probably one of the most emotional & potent moments of the show so far imo. it was cathartic to have that dramatized into this big 'the sky is falling' thing in the story itself

plane crash is worth it for Walt's speech at the school gym in s3

^^ so true, I recant my criticism.

w/r/t suspension of disbelief, the only thing on the show that I struggled with is the idea that Gus is so completely reliant on Walt that he has to go to these lengths to keep the lab running. Is his overhead so high that he can't go a month without supply?

Also they need to explain why Saul made such a radical decision to put his life on the line for Walt and Jesse.

gus is using his lab to cut mexico out of the picture, if he can't keep a steady supply going to the streets mexican dealers might muscle their way back in, think they spent quite a bit of time establishing this

businesses often have to overextend themselves in order to get to the next level so I don't think it's sloppy plotting, actually pretty realistic

plane crash is worth it for Walt's speech at the school gym in s3

so awful and then also so great.

Also they need to explain why Saul made such a radical decision to put his life on the line for Walt and Jesse.

think Saul sees Walt's business as being much more lucrative for him than his usual parade of penny-ante losers, as long as it can be reliable. so he does everything he can to keep it reliable.

also he just kinda likes Walt.

I thought the Gus plot was entirely plausible -- it's the cartoonish Mexican brothers that I have a problem with. I guess I shouldn't expect so much from, I dunno, satellite characters, but Jane's a satellite plot-moving character, and she was given more depth than the brothers.

Basically, without revealing much, I can say that it seems like the Mexican-Americans (including Jesse's friends, male and female) are given a lot more chance to be real humans, multifaceted people, whereas the Mexicans (including madman Tuco and the mute bell dinging uncle) are pretty one-note/monochromatic. I think that's kinda lame.

I also want to stand up for old Hank, who I think is the most interesting character on the show.

I thought the Mexican bros could have worked just fine if they weren't virtually identical twins who did everything methodically in ridiculous Terminator mode.

Including raiding the clothesline of sn innocent family.

I also want to stand up for old Hank, who I think is the most interesting character on the show.

― deez m'uts (La Lechera), Friday, 29 April 2011 02:44 (2 hours ago)

He's the true protagonist of season 3, for me.

this is all nitpicking btw, this is maybe the best TV drama ever.

(nitpicking on my part)

i like it 90% of the time, less so when there are "clever" conceits like the stupid fly episode
i never liked it when the wire would try to be clever either
i think i basically hate when things are too clever. just let the story be without injecting cleverness into it all the damn time.

the fly episode is not very well loved but I dug it... I did know going in that it was a budget-driven eps so maybe I was more forgiving, but the ending really stuck with me. when walt is staring at the blinking light in his bedroom ceiling you can read the scene a couple of ways - he's either realizing fly = bug = gus is bugging the lab OR fly as symbol of death and that's what's keeping him up at night, driving him nuts and making him break bad. I like the way various possible interpretations were communicated in a subtle way by a simple scene, it raised the profile of the whole episode and made me think again damn this is good stuff.

but maybe that's what you mean by too clever clever and in that case forget I said anything

I also want to stand up for old Hank, who I think is the most interesting character on the show.

― deez m'uts (La Lechera), Friday, 29 April 2011 02:44 (2 hours ago)

He's the true protagonist of season 3, for me.

― Matt Armstrong, Friday, April 29, 2011 1:33 AM (9 hours ago)

i'm glad to hear he gets more interesting in s3 because at this point i feel like the guy is so close to being a Mad TV character (the horrible 'cop talk' sketches on the s2 dvd may have heavily influenced this observation, admittedly).

yes, that is what i mean by clever

and Hank totally gets more interesting -- his relationships with his job/coworkers, Marie, Walter, and with himself are really complex.

hank & his partner is a great relaish

I loved The Fly. It struck such a great balance between funny and ominous. I appreciated them turning a budget episode like that into such a pivotal one. I read the fly itself as kind of a metaphor for Walt's conscience, aka everything preventing him from enjoying any of the fruits of his labor. When he goes on the rant about where it all went wrong was the key for me.

Hank is amazing in S3, I mean he's always great and gets better and better and more sympathetic ALL the time, but I knid of needed to get a blanket to chew on out of worry for him in every second scene he appeared in by early S3