Taking Sides: Liverpool vs Everton

Mike, I know that EFC fans hated Liverpool for years but from a few fans I sense that the bitterest grudge comes from not seeing that great side win the European Cup in 1986 or 1987.

But really what is the bitterest hate between footy fans? Is it Arsenal/Spurs? Rangers/Celtic? Sunderland/Newcastle? Real/Barca?

My vote: Boca Juniors/River Plate in Argentina, they don't fight in car parks, they have drive by shootings for crying out loud!

Mark: the whole 'big club' business. I remember being taunted about that in the early 80s - the difference now, I think, is that (post-Sky/Premiership) the 'bigness' of certain clubs is cemented in place a bit more firmly. The likelihood of EFC performing a relelgation-candidates-with-bulging-transfer-list (under Lee) to European-trophy-winners-full-of-internationals (under Kendall) five-year transformation *now* is minute. We missed the boat in the early 90s and, yes, there's not much difference between us and the Southamptons of this world now.

*Historically*, of course - there's no comparison between EFC and the other 'delusional' clubs you mentioned. 9 times champions, 5 FA Cups, most seasons in top flight, yada yada yada. All a bit meaningless, of course - this slump could easily last as long as the one post-WW2: by the early 50s, Dean, Lawton and Mercer were long-gone and EFC were in the 2nd Div.

I look forward eagerly to Ian Ross *once again* dragging out the 'School of Science' albatross in the Guardian on Mondays over the next few months, for a lame joke and a dig in the ribs of a club already on its knees. I know a Red when I read one.

OK I've seen the red rag and gone full tilt at it. What nonsense! Spurs were the first team to do the double in the 20th Century, the first british team to win a European trophy, only trail in FA cup victories to Man Yoo etc.etc.. I'm sure supporters of the other clubs could trot out similar stats.

Fans will define success in which ever manner best suits their club's historical strengths; Spurs are obviously a great Cup team, who did something in 1961 which had previously been considered 'impossible' in the 'modern' game (unfortunately, the Double became pretty routine in the 90s). Forest fans will wallow in their club's European successes. Wolves fans might have a claim on their side being the best in Europe in the mid-50s (before Euro club competition), but might struggle to claim supremacy in even the West Midlands since. Man City deserve their special status simply for not being Man United.

I figured league titles is as good a measure as any: of the aforementioned clubs, Wolves have 3 titles (all won in the 1950s), City and Spurs two each, Forest one. Everton have nine, which puts us 4th in the all-time list behind Liverpool, Man Utd and Arsenal.

If those three clubs are the *biggest*, we can argue all day about who leads the chasing pack. There's a strong case for saying Leeds Utd, based on their decade of consistency under Revie. *Maybe* Spurs, with all those FA Cups. But Everton, with 98 seasons out of 102 in the top flight and those nine championships, would (surprise!) be my pick.

Not that we're about to close the gap at all...

Goodison Park was absolutely heaving.... I bought tickets in the main stand with the lads, despite the fact that I was leader of Liverpool City Council at the time.... the noise was just incredible.... [The goal by Trevor Steven] simply captured the brilliance of that team and the glory of watching them. He received the ball on the left and gracefully lobbed the goalkeeper from quite some distance. That moment was better than any amount of sec you can possibly imagine.... Steven's run and lob probably lasted six seconds in total, but it seemed like 10 minutes. It was all about the majestic manner in which he did it and the perfect timing.... Only he had the grace and flow of movement to produce a moment of sheer majesty that could encapsulate the team's brilliance.

Personally I think the goal was better than lots of sec, but beyond that I'm not sure.

In a way yes, although Everton are still a loooooong way of challenging for the league. But they do seem better under Moyes (the only British Premier league manager who has a UEFA coaching license apart from Fergie who used his nefarious powers to make himself get one due to ten years in the job) than they were with Smithy. But results such as the one against Man City trhe other week will always count against them. Inconsistecy, that's the problem.

It's up for grabs now!

Why haven't you been so keen on the greatest football club in the world since May 1989 then?

The league has improved quite a lot over the last two years though. I'm impressed.

Some people say that this is the last year before Celtic will need a major overhaul; this team is on its way out. I say that the team is over-staying by one year and that the re-jig should have occurred before 2002-3. In the summer lull. Thomson out, he's as much a chimera as Craig Burley (the Celtic edition), Sylla out (another example of * above), so many other people. Leaving the backbone: Larsson, Sutton, Hartson, Hedman, Mjallby, Lambert/Lennon axis. Build around that, with an eye to getting rid of one of the 2Ls.

- dwh.

I'm loving this little run, obv - but I expect it to end at Newcastle. I do genuinely expect us to be ahead of the red filth by the time The Golden Child signs that contract though. Of course, we'll start to slide in the spring - of course, we'll be mediocre again when the injuries come. But this is a far more impressive core EFC team than the one Royle took to Wembley and the top six in the mid-90s, or the free-scoring Campbell/Jeffers-led side that fancied a stab at a UEFA place for two-thirds of 99-00. Things have changed. Out of the Dark Ages at last.

CHRIS KIRKLAND. HAHA!

Ooh, he might even get a game for his club now Jerzy Nolongerclassicek is flailing a bit.

False dawn!

Losing to Sunderland though, sheesh.

I don't know quite what to make of the Liverpool slump - previous winter blips have always carried an air of inevitability about them, as if LFC were riding their luck a little to be where they were, and a rough patch balanced things up. This season, Liverpool could (and should) have won their opening 12 league games and yet now seem utterly bereft of ideas - the swing seems more extreme than before. Alan Green is not a man to be trusted, but he was scathing about both teams on R5 yesterday.

So, on the one hand, Liverpool seem ripe for the picking by an organised, fluent Everton side full of confidence. On the other, they're, erm, spawny gets who might not lose again until March.

I dunno. I plan to go on a long walk next Sunday.

Final whistle goes at Anfield in a match described by the BBC as "tedious". Of course, I was a great big knotty bundle of scrunched-up bags of entangled nerves, so no trip to a Sky-sporting pub or earphones blaring R5 for me... contented myself with housework, a couple of Sea and Cake LPs and the 'live text' updates on the Beeb's website.

Seemed like LFC edged it, Rooney hit the bar and there were a flurry of nasty tackles and yellow cards at the end.

Thank God that's over. Merry Xmas everybody.

Blackburn beat United 1-0, with a first-half Flitcroft goal. Some ex-international who's been knocking around the MUFC reserves came on for the last half-hour, to no great effect.

It was specifically Jim O'Rourke's "I Took The Opportunity To Antique My End Table" remix off Two Gentlemen that got me through the last seven minutes, if anyone's interested. It could work with, say, Brum-Villa too.

Any thoughts on just what Stevie G was trying to do with that 'tackle'? Apart from end Naysmith's career, that is.

For what it's worth I agree with Radio 5, neither team deserved to win it, but as the Guardian said this morning, Moyes bringing on Roonaldo just as the uintroductyion of Heskey and Smicer (who would ever have thought I'd write that sentence?) was a tactical masterstroke.

Let's hope they survive.

Still never mind, they'll be able to concentrate on the league... must practice saying that for when Chris gets in....

xabi has never been, nor would ever set foot, in meath

an adolescent david villa once delighted a pub in cavan with his rendition of 'ra classics

Carlos Puyol won the National Ploughing Championships in 1993

is there something patronizing about celebrating atypical football players like xabi? like to not only refrain from beating up call girls, but to actually read books and drink coffee

hes clearly an intelligent, relatively thoughtful 30 yr old man, it shouldn't be so unexpected

Which footballer was it who attempted to read Ulysses again? Something in my mind is telling me Kevin Kilbane but I'm sure that must be wrong.

Everton FC are going to have a new manager for the first time since before ilx started.

Austere technicians of School of Science.

I think ILX predates David Moyes, it was created in the Walter Smith era.

Liverpool have had five managers in that time. Spurs have had eight.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22483636

tony conte clearly angling for the plum goodison role

The Internet's origins are pretty foggy afaict, but Utd are definitely about to get their first new manager since before The Web started.

Not so. Use the search function:

Another shocking display from United tonight - I think Big Ron's days in the job are numbered. And I suspect that one day in the distant future he'll accidentally broadcast some racist abuse.
- Ned Raggett, 4 November 1986 21:42 (26 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That's excellent.

I can't believe I was daft enough to say Moyes at EFC predated ilx -- he's been there for 11 years, I forgot that ilx was over 12 years old.

I think Kendall will struggle at Bilbao; Colin Harvey is the tactical brain in that partnership. I have no such fears for EFC - the squad is strong and with the impending addition of Barnes and Beardsley (where else would they go?) I can't really see anyone challenging us for the next few years. I think we may match LFC's 16 titles by the late-'90s!
- Michael Jones, 18 June 1987 17:55 (25 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Everton 2-0 West Ham United

a fine first Toffee goal here: all passed along the ground, 'your Brazilian blend' (John Helm)

Fulham 1-3 Liverpool

Liverpool look increasingly dangerous -- seems they will do better next season.

i am watching the highlights of the liverpool game, they don't look any great shakes in this one. but they have looked better lately (easy to play when their season has been over since whenever, though?)

I revive this thread to mark the high point of Liverpool FC's history since the European Cup victory in 2005.

Happily it is also a high point for Everton FC who I hope will finish in fourth place.

"Merseyside's rocking again" -- Martin Keown, this season

Both sides are better than they've been in recent memory, and it's largely down to Swansea.

http://toffeeweb.com/season/09-10/comment/fan/RedBlueGreenOrange.pdf

on the catholic protestant aspect

Fascinating. From a line of Tory-hating Catholics, I had to be Evertonian, I guess.

Everton broke their club record scoreline in a pre-season friendly yesterday: 0-22 at ATV Irdning of Austria, in new manager Marco Silva's first match.

You can even watch the goals here!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44835279

There's a point around goal 11 where you just see something break inside the goalkeeper and he's only halfway through the ordeal. Goal number 19 is the really insulting one though, the point where he realises he just can't be bothered any more.

Big result for Everton yesterday.

But, miserably, there is no end in sight to the derby drought. 1971-78 was the defining barren spell of my childhood and why Andy King's winner was celebrated so deliriously. This doesn't just surpass that, it's the longest winless run by either team in the history of the fixture. Almost makes one pine for the 1990s.

https://youtu.be/4MJwi0Zwbk4

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/dec/17/carlo-ancelotti-agrees-deal-with-everton-to-take-over-as-manager

I have a curious feeling that this will actually work.

So long Big Dunc

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/dec/17/carlo-ancelotti-agrees-deal-with-everton-to-take-over-as-manager

I have a curious feeling that this will actually work.

― the pinefox, Tuesday, December 17, 2019