well, the Central Powers knew that once America entered the war that they (the CP) would eventually lose; as a result they increased submarine warfare, which wrecked havoc on the Brits' supply lines.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 8 October 2007 15:12 (sixteen years ago) link
Germany could not have won anyway, given the range of resources against them, and their shock offensive in 1918 had crested even before the US troops started arriving. They might have got a better peace deal if they had hung on into 1919 (when US troops would have been so predominant that Wilson could basically have dictated the peace, overruling British and French objections), so maybe the actual peace deal that came up was not so different from what you would have had if the French and British had defeated Germany on their own.
― The Real Dirty Vicar, Monday, 8 October 2007 15:50 (sixteen years ago) link
Another side issue: who was more repellent - Wilson or Henry Cabot Lodge?
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 8 October 2007 15:54 (sixteen years ago) link
the worst president in history
Whaddya know, Jonah Goldberg agrees
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 01:51 (sixteen years ago) link
I bought 1912 and Holywood based on this thread. Edmund Morris' Roosevelt books are ripping yarns.
― caek, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 02:35 (sixteen years ago) link
http://www.doctorzebra.com/imprez/28teeth.jpg
― omar little, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 23:17 (fifteen years ago) link
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g34/jesus_aguado/ShaneMacgowan2.jpg
― omar little, Thursday, 20 November 2008 00:42 (fifteen years ago) link
Besides his other offenses, friend Woodrow had gnarly teeth?!?
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Thursday, 20 November 2008 00:55 (fifteen years ago) link
Wilson had his good points. He firmly believed that people should determine their own government. But he caved in at the end of the treaty negotiations in 1919 and let Clemenceau have his way. So, he is docked points on that one.
When he entered WWI, he formed the most despotic, propagandistic, autocratic, lying, conniving government machinery the USA has ever endured. Resistance to Wilsonian policy was seen as ipso facto treason. You were either with him or a scumbag worthy of long imprisonment or vigilante lynching. See Eugene Debs, IWW.
Wilson gave high ideals a bad name.
― Aimless, Thursday, 20 November 2008 01:28 (fifteen years ago) link
He firmly believed that people should determine their own government.
Which is why he manipulated us into provoking a conflict with Mexico (and nearly succeeding) and helped Clemenceau and Lloyd George carve the Middle East into the divisions that have brought so much tranquility in the last 90 years.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Thursday, 20 November 2008 01:32 (fifteen years ago) link
among America's greatest 20th-century fascists, makes Joe McCarthy look like a piker. (Nixon love makes perfect sense)
― Dr Morbius, Thursday, 5 February 2009 17:02 (fifteen years ago) link
I'm reading Hollywood at the moment. Good stuff so far.
I'm sure this story is familiar to the usual suspects on this thread, but for anyone else, this NYRB article is a nice overview of Debs vs. Wilson during/after the war.
PDF: http://www.mediafire.com/?yotlmnz32kq
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22800Justice Holmes and the 'Splendid Prisoner'By Anthony LewisDemocracy's Prisoner: Eugene V. Debs, the Great War, and the Right to Dissentby Ernest Freeberg
Harvard University Press, 380 pp., $29.95
...Harding commuted Debs's sentence effective Christmas Day 1921. When he walked out of the prison, Debs was cheered by most of the two thousand inmates, who had been given permission by Zerbst to press against the windows. Then Debs got on a train to Washington to see Harding—at the President's invitation!The visit to the Oval Office lasted thirty minutes. No one disclosed what was said, except that Harding greeted Debs by saying, "I have heard so damned much about you, Mr. Debs, that I am now very glad to meet you personally." Harding went on to release most of the other political prisoners, and his postmaster general ended the Wilson administration's bans on left-wing journals.It is an extraordinary story. A pacifist is imprisoned for a vague speech in wartime, and a supposedly liberal president refuses to release him when the war is over. A conservative successor then quickly frees him, and rolls back other repressions imposed by Woodrow Wilson. Public opinion, at first so antagonistic toward Debs, moves under the impact of the pardon campaign to more sympathy for him and for tolerance of dissenting speech in general. H.L. Mencken scoffed at Debs's pacifism and his "Marxian rumble-bumble." But Mencken said: Is his release denounced by The New York Times, the Rotary Clubs and the idiots who seem to run the American Legion? Then it is precisely because he is fair, polite, independent, brave, honest and a gentleman.
The visit to the Oval Office lasted thirty minutes. No one disclosed what was said, except that Harding greeted Debs by saying, "I have heard so damned much about you, Mr. Debs, that I am now very glad to meet you personally." Harding went on to release most of the other political prisoners, and his postmaster general ended the Wilson administration's bans on left-wing journals.
It is an extraordinary story. A pacifist is imprisoned for a vague speech in wartime, and a supposedly liberal president refuses to release him when the war is over. A conservative successor then quickly frees him, and rolls back other repressions imposed by Woodrow Wilson. Public opinion, at first so antagonistic toward Debs, moves under the impact of the pardon campaign to more sympathy for him and for tolerance of dissenting speech in general. H.L. Mencken scoffed at Debs's pacifism and his "Marxian rumble-bumble." But Mencken said:
Is his release denounced by The New York Times, the Rotary Clubs and the idiots who seem to run the American Legion? Then it is precisely because he is fair, polite, independent, brave, honest and a gentleman.
― caek, Friday, 2 April 2010 11:57 (fourteen years ago) link
I just finished this splendid biography, which doesn't stint on the man's frustrating compromises. At any rate, I'm prepared to give him credit for the progressive achievements of his first two years.
A total douchebag in his last two years, though (Hollywood is very good – and accurate – on this).
― filling the medicare donut hole with the semen of liberal (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 2 April 2010 13:12 (fourteen years ago) link
well, as long as they were white Europeans anyway. he didn't do squat from anyone in the Middle East, Asia or Africa.
― the return of the Great White Douche (Eisbaer), Thursday, 22 April 2010 02:50 (fourteen years ago) link
alfred, are you watching boardwalk empire?
― caek, Tuesday, 9 November 2010 20:40 (thirteen years ago) link
No. Should I?
― otherwise, and twat (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 9 November 2010 21:05 (thirteen years ago) link
it's not great. i wouldn't necessarily make an effort. acting is pretty weak/hampered by miscasting most of the character drama is a bit rubbish. the premise is politically quite interesting, but it's nowhere near as well handled as, say, deadwood.
anyway, the latest episode was partly set at the 1920 GOP convention and featured cameos by harding and his wife. one of our heros is the atlantic city treasurer and kingmaker for the nj delegation, and meets harding and horsetrades with the Ohio bosses. the wife mentioned to him that her fortune teller predicted harding is going to die while president, which made me think of hollywood (and wonder if they'd pinched that from vidal's fictionalization or whether it really happened).
not clear if this grander political canvas is going to become a bigger part of the show (which has mostly been local bootlegging so far). harry daugherty is played by christopher mcdonald, which makes me think he may appear again.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/NonStopPop/Blogs/BoardwalkEmpire117c.jpg
― caek, Tuesday, 9 November 2010 21:26 (thirteen years ago) link
went to Wilson's end-of-life home in DC yesterday. The guide was kind of forthright on his being "diminished" in last 17 months of his presidency. Otherwise enjoyed seeing his piano, Victrola and kangaroo-fur coat.
― kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Monday, 17 January 2011 13:53 (thirteen years ago) link
One of the surprises I've learned: Wilson liked sex.
― Gus Van Sotosyn (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 17 January 2011 13:53 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah, even the house's 15-minute video mentioned an affair he had late in his first marriage.
― kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Monday, 17 January 2011 13:55 (thirteen years ago) link
Not sophisticated, but Frum's speculations are worth a read. I too wish Charles Evans Hughes had beaten Wilson.
― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 February 2012 18:51 (twelve years ago) link
ol' woody was the first pres to give press conferences! they sound hilariously stilted.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21761429
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Friday, 15 March 2013 06:52 (eleven years ago) link
He could be witty, however. "I am not as big a fool as I look, and if you will just go on the assumption that I am not a fool, it would correct a good many news items," he remarked at one press conference in 1914.
oh, burn!
Chris Hayes reminded people over Twitter last month that, despite conservative efforts to the contrary, the left hasn't considered Woody a hero in years.
― the little prince of inane false binary hype (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 15 March 2013 12:14 (eleven years ago) link
Obama is like Wilson, Michael Kazin argues, because he's a good speaker and is a Democrat and stuff.
― A deeper shade of lol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 8 June 2013 18:45 (eleven years ago) link
tbh obama seems more like wilson these days than ever
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Saturday, 8 June 2013 19:17 (eleven years ago) link
Ahead of A. Scott Berg's new bio, Jill Lepore gives him the New Yorker treatment.
― first I think it's time I kick a little verse! (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 5 September 2013 21:20 (ten years ago) link
anyone read the new bio?
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, 4 November 2013 22:34 (ten years ago) link
oh boy did I! I finished it Saturday.
― the objections to Drake from non-REAL HIPHOP people (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 4 November 2013 22:40 (ten years ago) link
how the hell I wrote two thousand words I dunno; the asshole deserves it, I guess.
― the objections to Drake from non-REAL HIPHOP people (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 4 November 2013 22:41 (ten years ago) link
apropos of nothing, Alfred, what's the best book on FDR's presidency?
― eclectic husbandry (Dr Morbius), Monday, 4 November 2013 22:45 (ten years ago) link
The best single volume one is H.W. Brands' A Traitor to His Class. The excellent recent Fear Itself: The New Deal and the Origins of Our Time analyzes the degree to which the New Deal required the support of Southern racists who needed federal boodle.
The one with the best prose is Arthur Schlesinger, Jr's, surprisingly, with little of the sycophancy he'd demonstrate as the Kennedy court intellectual.
― the objections to Drake from non-REAL HIPHOP people (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 4 November 2013 22:49 (ten years ago) link
thank you
I am shocked to learn Princeton had a libidinous prez btw
― eclectic husbandry (Dr Morbius), Monday, 4 November 2013 22:52 (ten years ago) link
to be honest I can understand the attraction. Must be the lantern jaw.
― the objections to Drake from non-REAL HIPHOP people (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 4 November 2013 22:57 (ten years ago) link
excellent piece (as usual), alfred: i'm impressed that you could stomach wilson's company for two biographies!
as long as we're doing book recommendations, i'd love to see your picks for the best books on 20th century u.s. history.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, 4 November 2013 23:13 (ten years ago) link
You want'em here or in that other thread?
― the objections to Drake from non-REAL HIPHOP people (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 4 November 2013 23:14 (ten years ago) link
and thanks!
what other thread?
― caek, Monday, 4 November 2013 23:19 (ten years ago) link
J.D. recently started a thread about our formative books or something.
― the objections to Drake from non-REAL HIPHOP people (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 4 November 2013 23:25 (ten years ago) link
here is fine, i can't seem to find that other thread right now.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, 4 November 2013 23:43 (ten years ago) link
A few. I cheated a bit.
Gore Vidal - Narratives of EmpireEdmund Wilson - Patriotic GoreTaylor Branch - The King YearsLarzer Ziff - The American 1890's: Life and Times of a Lost GenerationRobert A. Caro - LBJ stuffAmy Kaplan - The Anarchy of Empire in the Making of U.S. CultureWalter Karp - The Politics of WarWilliam Appleman Williams - The Tragedy of American DiplomacyHenry Adams - The Education of...Edmund Morris - Theodore RexJohn Carlos Rowe - Literary Culture and U.S. ImperialismJonathan Schell - The Time of IllusionHenry James - The American SceneGarry Wills - Nixon AgonistesJoan Didion - Political FictionsGary May - Bending Towards Justice
― the objections to Drake from non-REAL HIPHOP people (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 5 November 2013 00:09 (ten years ago) link
thanks! nice list, a few that would be on my own and a few i've been meaning to get around to (taylor branch's king books, adams's 'education').
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 5 November 2013 19:23 (ten years ago) link
http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/18/princeton-students-take-over-presidents-office-demand-erasure-of-woodrow-wilson/
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 19 November 2015 19:50 (eight years ago) link
waiting for the right to chortle over the supposed deliciousness of left wingers taking on Woody's reputation.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 19 November 2015 19:53 (eight years ago) link
i once found myself quite by accident in staunton, virginia, wilson's birthplace. i went to the W.W. museum and it was kind of a whitewash (pun not really intended). the guy held some views and did some things that seem rather progressive, and other views/things that seem unconscionably retrograde. i'm not sure it's right to say--as some have--that his racism was unexceptional for the time. i actually think that even among his own milieu he was a bit outspoken in his racist attitudes.
i'm not sure what taking his name off of anything will accomplish, but it's not like people are in any danger of forgetting woodrow wilson, so i don't mind it. for the same reason i didn't mind that the DGA took D.W. Griffith's name off of their yearly prize, which some people reacted to like it was the end of the world.
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 19 November 2015 19:54 (eight years ago) link
i don't think any ideological faction would really be comfortable claiming the entirety of wilson's legacy, which is complex and very mixed.
He resegregated the federal government, which is worse than what Grover Cleveland ever did re civil rights.
I think one of those demands is absurd. "The left" has known about Wilson's contempt for civil liberties and civil rights for years.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 19 November 2015 19:55 (eight years ago) link
yeah, that's what i mean. not only was his racism fairly virulent even among his class, but he had a position from which he could do a lot of damage. and he did.
that said, it does seem to me that there are probably lots of more important and substantive things to protest than the name of a building or college... not just matters of racial justice (mass incarceration, police abuse, unequal employment and housing opportunities) but also some global matters that we as americans are complicit in (like drone strikes, environmental collapse). i guess you could say that all these things go together, somehow, and to protest one thing does not mean you can't protest another. but it does seem to me that a lot of righteous anger is being focused on what in the grand scheme of things seem like trivial matters. obviously a lot of folks don't agree w/ me on that.
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 19 November 2015 19:58 (eight years ago) link
fucking hate woodrow wilson. if nixon wasn't literally guilty of treason, i'd rank him worse than nixon. on the other hand, the idea of "making the world safe for democracy" is probably more geopolitically astute than any us president since 1979. :(
― rushomancy, Thursday, 19 November 2015 21:39 (eight years ago) link
Chas Pierce on the 100th anniv of the current American Empire
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a53792/american-empire-bob-lafollette-wilson/
― Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 11 March 2017 13:37 (seven years ago) link