Is the Guardian worse than it used to be?

"At what age is a man too old to wear band T-shirts?"

Martin McCall, by email

"About 15 - that young enough for you, Martin? And to follow one rhetorical question with several more, what in God's name is the point of band T-shirts anyway? To show your allegiance to a band? Do you think anyone else cares? To impress onlookers with your esoteric musical knowledge? See previous reply. To make people stare at your bony chest? Again, I refer you to the first answer. To show that you once attended a live gig? Wow, like, a pair of golden headsets to the guy in the Nirvana '91 T-shirt. In case you happen to bump into the lead singer on the street, he sees that the two of you are kindred souls and therefore invites you to join his band and you then go on the road and have all the manly bonding sessions followed by groupies that your heart could desire? OK, I'll give you that one, although this does suggest that you still harbour the fantasy that you might bump into Joey Ramone in Waterstone's.

"As for ladies in band T-shirts, give me a fricking break. First, gals, a badly cut, poorly made, oversized T-shirt is good for nothing other than wearing to bed and the gym. Second, too often women who wear band T-shirts appear to be going for what we shall call Groupie Chic. It is a style amply modelled by Kate Moss in recent years, and can pretty much be summed up as skinny faded black jeans, ankle boots, a ripped band T-shirt and a cropped fur jacket. In other words, a girlified version of Marc Bolan's or Keith Richards' wardrobe, as though the woman has been so busy, um, sleeping on the band bus she hasn't had time to clean her clothes, so she's now wearing ones belonging to her musical companion. This column has no time for such nonsense."

Yeah, because women have *no* interest in music whatsoever except for sleeping with musicians. What CENTURY is this cretin from?

I think I stopped wearing band T-shirts by the time I was 23. It wasn't necessarily a conscious move tho. I doubt I will ever wear one again tho - I guess it seems lame unless it's an old obscure or overlooked thus hip act (even this I dunno about). I don't notice many people over 20 wearing them. Does Matt DC still have that Save Ferris T?

I only want to sleep with musicians if they are hot as they are (their musical ability is pretty irrelevant in fact).

dear teh grauniad - a long time ago/we used to be friends...

It went downhill after I left.

or were you PUSHED?

http://homepage.mac.com/alexinnyc/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2007-09-02%2015.37.57%20-0700/Image-D15E03FF59A011DC.jpg

heh. (sorry alex, no harm intended)

http://www.abc.net.au/sport/thesportsdesk/images/200607/20060707henrydive_derblog.jpg

xp

i was being harsh really. i don't care what's on other people's t-shirts that much. just trying to work out why i stopped wearing/wouldn't wear band t-shirts myself.

Any t-shirt which isn't plain white clearly sucks that's why.

i couldn't agree less

I still wear band t-shirts if I like the band. Why not? I don't *define* myself or my personality by my music tastes any more, I haven't done that since I was about 18. But that's not the same thing as wearing a band t-shirt.

I suppose the fashion journalist in discussion cannot fathom the idea that clothes are just something you put on, rather than a definition of or statement about your personality.

This is definitely something that happens as you age - or rather, has happened to me as I aged. There's a subtle difference between Statement Clothes and just things you put on.

Guardian editorial worldview circa 2007:

http://www.astucia.co.uk/images/sce/galibier%20tunnel%20_three.jpg

why else would you buy a band t-shirt if not as a statement or definition of personality?

I didn't know it was a band t-shirt okay?

because you're cold xp

In the past I've usually just bought them as a keepsake of a gig I've enjoyed. The piece tracer quotes is idiotic fluff, obv. I'd be embarrased to admit I'd written that.

Because you like the design? Because you like the music? Because it was given to you (this is where most of mine come from)? Because it was a souvenier?

x-post

you wouldn't actually buy a band t-shirt because you liked the design but not necessarily the band tho...would you?

because you like the music = statement/definition of you/your taste

given to you = not you buying

you wouldn't actually buy a band t-shirt because you liked the design but not necessarily the band tho...would you?

No, plus I've only ever bought them @ gigs.

because you like the music = statement/definition of you/your taste

Probably yeah, but w/smaller bands there's also the knowledge that in buying it, yr helping to supposrt the tour.

i actually bought a comets on fire t-shirt solely because the design was so awesome. (it was at a gig, but they hadn't come on stage yet.) then i heard the music and i liked that too. i suppose if i hadn't liked their music, or thought it was boring, it would have posed a problem.

a friend of mine, who shall remain nameless so that alex in nyc doesn't stalk and kill him, bought a huge iron maiden patch when he was 14 and sewed it across the shoulders of his denim jacket. he had never heard a note of iron maiden, but he wound up becoming the biggest iron maiden fan i know, and even sung in a band later, where his vocal style was almost inseparable from bruce dickinson's.

my take on this: do not read hadley freeman.

this resolution made some time ago, stands as strong today as it ever did.

it's a crass and deliberately invidious piece of writing. such an attitude, if sincerely held, could be turned around on pretty much ANY choice of clothing. so forgeddaboudit

the last band t-shirt i bought - robyn!

alan i can't help myself, i know i'm sick and need help.

is there a thread for best band t-shirts? must see

Taste is something that I have. It does not define me. Clothes are something I wear. The statement I am making is "I don't really care about clothes any more."

If I'm going to make a statement about clothes, I'll wear a bright green paisley jacket to a dronerock festival where everyone else is in leather.

I suppose my Hawkwind t-shirt is a statement, it says "ha ha, I'm wearing a Hawkwind t-shirt, I care nothing for fashion, I am wearing the shirt of a band so deeply uncool you can suck my left one because I love them!" But it's certainly not a statement saying that I want to f*ck any of Hawkwind or that I have a musician boyfriend whose Hawkwind t-shirt I'm borrowing, which is the assumption of that article.

> I don't notice many people over 20 wearing them.

*SOBS*

> you wouldn't actually buy a band t-shirt because you liked the design but not necessarily the band tho...would you?

EAR t-shirt with the putney on the front = great. EAR live = terrible. (EAR on CD = ok, plus pram and stereolab were supporting)

"Do you think anyone else cares?"

the core MOTOR of fashion is YES OF COURSE I THINK OTHER PEOPLE CARE THAT I AM WEARING... WHAT'S "IN". no less dumb than wearing something else that forms part of your identity. so it's just a puerile throw away bit of nonsense. heh. fashion in 'being puerile' shocker.

I gave up caring whether I was too old to wear band t-shirts or whatever a long time ago. Really, if you're getting that worked up about what other people are wearing, the joke's on you, I think. To paraphrase - "Do you think anyone else cares?"

Yesterday I wore an X-Ray Spex t-shirt. I am 31. Oh noes.

If a FAC 51 Hacienda T-shirt counts as a band t-shirt, I am wearing one NOW. I am more than 31.

Unless you buy shirts at arena shows or whatever they cost a tenner or less which is cheaper than t-shirts tend to be (aside from plain ones from Primark or something). I guess it bugs fashiony people cos it's fashion for people who don't give a shit about fashion

you wouldn't actually buy a band t-shirt because you liked the design but not necessarily the band tho...would you?

whoa there, people do this All The Time! witness all the motorhead/def leppard/poison tees on sale at top shop/debenhams/whatever.

What's a putney, Andy?

I bought a Mega City Four t-shirt the other week. I bought it cos I like the band and I like their logo, and out of nostalgia.

witness all the motorhead/def leppard/poison tees on sale at top shop/debenhams/whatever

really? since when do those shops sell (official?) band merchandise?

but how do you know people buying them don't like the band (even if it's 'ironic' or just liking the idea OF liking them, if that makes sense) anyway?

i can imagine some people, not just kids or people buying for kids, buy band t-shirts because of the design and without really knowing about the band but can't be that many really. this is even more of a facile 'want to look cool' statement tho isn't it? that sense of knowing what to buy but not really knowing why...

remember the 'little girls wearing Nico 'Chelsea Girl' t-shirt thing (altho i approved of this ha)

Uhm yeah, there were tons of high street chains selling classic rock tees (I presume they just bought a load wholesale).

i figure these are aimed at and bought mainly by teenagers

really? since when do those shops sell (official?) band merchandise?

since AGES, honestly. i doubt your "average" 14-year-old Miss Selfridge customer would have a clue/give a shit who Def Leppard/insert 80s hair metal band here are. it's just a noisy "cool" design that'll make her look a bit like Peaches Geldof or whoever.

I'm sure I remember even Primark licensing some lame/classic 80s band tee designs recently.

and As Matt DC has admitted, sometimes people buy band tees without even realising that's what they are!

nb this whole discussion is clearly on the wrong thread.

Someone was selling MC5 shirts a good few years ago and it was the only place that you could get MC5 shirts so I know loads of people that bought them as they had been desperate for years to get them.
I got mine online but it was probably the same shirt.

a putney

http://www.vintagesynth.com/misc/vcs3.jpg

so called because they were made in putney (not far from you actually, there's a website that gives the actual address of the place they used to make them, cottage industry style, deodor road, sw15).

http://www.ems-synthi.demon.co.uk/snaps/everynun.jpg

Hang on a second, I went to primary school at 49 Deodar Road!!

Oh, I didn't, it was 95-97 Deodar Road (since moved). My best friend at the time lived at 50 Deodar Road, though.

I've got a Synthi t-shirt but my god, I want a t-shirt with that nun on it.

I am currently wearing a T-ahirt of a band that I saw live but didn't like much. It's a pretty design and the band aren't well known enough for many people to even know it's a band T-shirt.

I have had it on since yesterday so should probably take it off soon.

what's the band?

Skrewdriver

Ha. A Swedish indiepop band called Aerospace.

good name/word for t-shirt

i am wearing my robyn t-shirt today!

message for all youse: "i am a 'top 5' kind of person"

back to the guardian...

has anyone else had problems viewing the site this week? nothing (that i know of) has changed on my computer and suddenly instead of a nice clean page, i have just text and links, all in the same size New York font. (and the Guardian is the only place this is true, so I feel like they must have changed something).

Could go on the phrases we're sick of thread but the Guardian livebloggers are using 'for his part' constantly with Trump e.g. Donald Trump, for his part, has threatened to strike energy infrastructure if a deal isn’t secured.

Instead of using this sad story and just putting it out there today maybe construct an argument for assisted dying around it?

idk, the woman got what she wanted. Even if it passed I am not sure she would've waited until the law was put into place and processes were embedded. We know there are issues with this law in the first place. It feels rotten to use the story like this.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/apr/24/mother-ends-life-at-swiss-clinic-four-years-after-sons-death

Instead of using this sad story and just putting it out there today maybe construct an argument for assisted dying around it?

idk, the woman got what she wanted. Even if it passed I am not sure she would've waited until the law was put into place and processes were embedded. We know there are issues with this law in the first place. It feels rotten to use the story like this.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/apr/24/mother-ends-life-at-swiss-clinic-four-years-after-sons-death

The Brexitland Safaris will continue until morale improves

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/may/18/reform-voters-progressive-post-industrial-northern-england

This is very Guardian dad.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/may/26/heatwaves-britain-2052-sleep-hot-houses-water-climate

It's already an inferno in many parts of the Global South, maybe just report this instead of "it is year 2052".

The swastika is strongly associated with Nazi Germany, Adolf Hitler and the Holocaust, and is widely regarded as a hate symbol.

Thank you, Guardian.

just don't repeat any of this to the Kyiv regime who have just literally given a full state reburial funeral to a Nazi's rotten corpse, with Zelensky kneeling down in tribute to this great hero. There does seem to be some operational holocaust amnesia in Eastern Europe right now. Maybe nazism does need explaining in basic Graun terms like here. Perhaps quite shocking it needs explaining in the country where the Babi Yar massacre happened.

xp is that from the article about the Reform guy with the swastika tattoo? tbh I kind of think he's telling the truth about the tat being from when he 'got into Buddhism'in his late teens, just because 'guy who was involved with various counter-cultures in his youth becoming a Reform guy in middle-age' feels like a fairly common type, though of course he probably I'd racist anyway, being in Reform and all

i don't care how young, stupid and stoned you are nobody thinks "i'm going to get a completely innocent tattoo that i'll have to carefully explain to strangers for the rest of my life" in good faith

I remember some RE:Search era 90s freak that got covered in swastika tattoos to 'reclaim the symbol's innocence' or something... wonder how he feels about it now

This from last year: ;GENEVA — Finland’s air force, now part of NATO, still flies swastikas on a handful of unit flags — but is preparing to phase them out, largely to avoid awkwardness with its Western allies.

to be fair, they were using them since before the Nazi party even existed, but still...

I think that Re/Search guy was called Manwoman

I keep expecting the Kula Shaker guy to announce he's standing for Reform actually

the posh white UK liberal centre are the true keepers of the flame for UK white supremacy/fascism. And they are confident enough to not require nazi tats to prove their credentials.

Sorry but this is unforgivable:

Having performed exceptionally for Celtic in his first season in Scotland, Tounekti is another player who is expected to shape the future of the Tunisian national team.

To be fair, he did play well in that one Scottish Cup game... against Auchinleck Talbot.

Again, lots of assertions in this from a few days ago about Digwa lying but not one bit of it explains how exactly that was determined - only the v dubious statement from the judge. This just reads like an Express/Sun piece but has been a pattern across all reporting on it.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/26/henry-nowak-murderer-police-footage-lying-racial-attack

The murderer of Henry Nowak, the student whose death sparked riots in Southampton, is seen lying to police officers...

When police arrived at the murder scene in Southampton, Digwa falsely claimed Nowak had racially abused him and knocked his turban off...

The series of lies told by Digwa minutes after he had fatally stabbed...

He can be heard lying to police about being racially attacked by Nowak, who he claims was “obviously drunk”

When the judge, William Mousley KC, sentenced Digwa, he told him: “I am sure that Henry had said nothing racist. You are the only person to make that claim and it is completely at odds with his previous character.”

Digwa’s lies led to Nowak being arrested and handcuffed while he was dying...

Randomly morphs from Englishness to Britishness and back again. As ever.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/jul/01/the-things-that-connect-us-are-fraying-james-graham-short-film-explores-what-it-means-to-be-english

always nice to see a Society is in the Gutter in the wild too

Society Is In the Gutter But If Ian McKellen Makes A Short Film About It Maybe It Won't Be

I don’t think we even noted it itt (maybe it was mentioned in the Epstein thread) but they also recently did another bit of sponcon for the gates foundation, this time… a puff piece on Melinda Gates

Hasn’t she said that Bill’s friendship with Epstein was a big factor in their divorce?

Guardian Pol ed.

I just love that Wonderwall is replacing Sweet Caroline. Not before time.

— Jessica Elgot (@jessicaelgot) July 1, 2026

Really a crime that we can't see Simon Hedges likes any more

Wonderwall is just the REAL LADS version of "Angels", pure basic filth. Sweet Caroline far superior.

They're all stinking