2008 Primaries Thread 2: THE QUICKENING

you really dont know any women who can't stand hillary?

_____________________________

Personally? No, actually, I don't.

Plenty are out there, trust me. I spoke at length to the wife of one of my law partners recently. She was in the top 10 in her law class and is extremely bright. She's also Cuban-American, if that matters. She hates HRC, and it stems from HRC staying with Bill Clinton after he admitted his affairs. It's hardwired in her DNA that HRC stayed with Bill Clinton only because she had designs on a future political office. Based on that, she'll never see HRC as anything but cold and calculating and willing to put her personal ambitions above all else.

You can't generalize, I know, but I've been amazed by the amount of women I've met who can't stand HRC, and would never consider voting for her.

BTW, this, to me, is one of the biggest reasons Obama is surging ahead. Yes, he's an inspiring speaker and a very smart, savvy politician. But I think now that the GE is coming into focus, Democratic voters have increasing grave concerns about HRC's ability to win in November, and that's pushing lots of people into Obama's camp (they're looking for an alternative to HRC, and an inspiring alternative is even better).

some even from her own party, like Leahy Moynihan

sorry, confusing my senators (again)

Oh, re economics:
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/22/85820/0188 is a recent piece, but this comment
http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/2/22/85820/0188/12#12
links to a couple of essays about some of his advisers.

I wouldn't have tuned in to it if he hadn't been to the right of HRC on the health care issue
http://openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4004
& saying stuff about social security crisis.

Krugman's been attacking Obama like crazy for months, and again I couldn't quite put my finger on it other than he liked Edwards, but..

YES HE SOMETIMES USES CENTRIST RHETORIC. THIS IS BECAUSE HE THINKS IT'S MORE LIKELY TO PRODUCE LEFTIST RESULTS. RESULTS THAT MAY BE FURTHER TO THE LEFT THAN HILLARY. STOP BEING SO LITERAL.

Krugman's problems with Obama are of a more personal nature. Krugman's quite rational otherwise, but if he's your primary source about Obama's economic policies and instincts, I'd be suspicious.

(xp)

Maybe it's just that we all spent eight years agreeing on how much Bush sucks.

-- daria-g, Friday, February 22, 2008 4:18 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

yeah this is otm

this kind of colossal fuckup should not be counted as experience

the most damning thing about Hillary's campaign, I think, is the revelation that she's basically the same kind of manager as Bush is.

You can't generalize, I know, but I've been amazed by the amount of women I've met who can't stand HRC, and would never consider voting for her.

Yeah. Sometimes I wonder how the feminist movement ever happened in the first place. For real. Far as staying with Bill because of designs on future political office, I don't think it's true but I wouldn't actually care if it were, I don't know why it's anyone's business, unless ambition is unforgivable because you think someone should be off being a victim instead. The list of politicians who stay married to the same person because of designs on future political office is very, very, very long, it's just the usual way it goes is the one who's cheating has the designs on higher office.

politically i've always thought HRC was ok, B/B+ maybe, and would make a fine enough president, certainly able to repair a lot of the damage of the past 8 years. but this was a political and intellectual position somewhat against my emotional reaction which is, and has always been, that she is just straight up irritating to listen to.

i think most people react to politicians emotionally first and decide which facts support that reaction. i've tried not to (really!), but there it is.

FWIW, I agree with you, Daria, in your above post.

She's also Cuban-American, if that matters. She hates HRC, and it stems from HRC staying with Bill Clinton after he admitted his affairs. It's hardwired in her DNA that HRC stayed with Bill Clinton only because she had designs on a future political office. Based on that, she'll never see HRC as anything but cold and calculating and willing to put her personal ambitions above all else.

This is EXACTLY why my mom, a moderate Republican with a college degree, can't stand her.

Krugman's been attacking Obama like crazy for months

i think it went something like this

early Krugman: Obama ... hmm he's ok
later Krugman: Obama's pretty bad
Obama camp: wait, earlier you said he was ok
Krugman: YOU DARE CHALLENGE ME, WTF, OBAMA SUXXX

total ego driven tantrum. that "Hate Springs Eternal" column was heinous.

That's one Hillary criticism that I'm not a fan of. It may be plausible, but I agree that the reason she didn't leave him isn't really anyone's business.

I don't either, but it's a generational (and maybe cultural) phenomenon. My mom, a Cuban-American, is a firmly pro-choice who knows she's the equal of any man, yet shit like what happened in '98 unearths stuff we don't understand.

Total double standard. Why they stay together is their business and in fact it may be less that Hillary is a cold, calculating power hungry bitch than maybe she still loves the guy she married over 30 years ago and they found a way to work something out. Who t f cares?

Hillary Threatened To “Demonize” Anyone Who Stood In The Way Of Her Health Care Plan. At a retreat for Senate Democrats, Hillary was asked by Bill Bradley, “whether the Clinton’s failure to meet their promise of submitting health care legislation to Congress in one hundred days… would make it more difficult to win passage… Perhaps some substantive changes might be required in the interest of realism, Bradley suggested. No, Hillary responded icily, there would be no changes because delay or not, the White House would ‘demonize’ members of Congress and the medical establishment who would use the interim to alter the administration’s plan or otherwise stand in its way.”

Ø Bill Bradley And Pat Moynihan Never Forgave Hillary For Treating Them As Enemies. “Bill Bradley and Pat Moynihan later said they were flabbergasted at Hillary’s words and attitude that afternoon, but each came to believe that the incident was indicative of something more revealing about her character… ‘That was it for me in terms of Hillary Clinton,’ Bradley said many years later. ‘You don’t tell members of the Senate you are going to demonize them. It was obviously so basic to who she is. The arrogance. The assumption that people with questions are enemies. The disdain. The hypocrisy.’ Lawrence O’Donnell explained the depth of Moynihan’s disappointment with the woman who would eventually replace him in the Senate. The senator ‘didn’t hold grudges, didn’t personalize such matters,’ said O’Donnell. ‘But the “demonizing” colored his perception of Hillary, and how she operated, for the rest of his life.’”

wow (from shakeys link)

This is EXACTLY why my mom, a moderate Republican with a college degree, can't stand her.

No offense against your mom, I do get (finally) that a lot of women including (especially?) professional, successful women agree. I'm incredibly dismayed about it. What a country.

This is like a tertiary red herring - I don't believe at all that she's stayed with him for ambition - but someone pls to tell me who the last presidential candidate was whose spouse was known to have cheated on them.

The only women I know who support Clinton are over age 60 (e.g. my mother, and wives of senior colleagues).

my mom is a professional, college-educated woman in her early '60s, who grew up in illinois to boot. she's practically hillary's demographic twin. and she doesn't mind hillary. but she voted obama because she thinks he matches up better against mccain.

But maybe that stuff is for another thread. Do we have a feminism thread?

but someone pls to tell me who the last presidential candidate was whose spouse was known to have cheated on them

I just kinda assume they're all a bunch of philanderers. "power is the ultimate aphrodisiac" etc

oh SPOUSE, yeah I dunno

or, someone tell me the last Presidential candidate who was known to have cheated. OH RIGHT.

mccain

but someone pls to tell me who the last presidential candidate was whose spouse was known to have cheated on them

Eleanor Roosevelt.

Video game regulation

On March 29, 2005, Clinton called the popular video game Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas a "major threat" to morality. She said, "Children are playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them. This is a silent epidemic of media desensitization that teaches kids it’s OK to diss people because they are a woman, they’re a different color or they’re from a different place."

Clinton's main concern was over the sexual content in the Hot Coffee mod portion of the game. She said that if the game's manufacturer did not change the game's ESRB rating from M (Mature 17+) to AO (Adults Only 18+), she would introduce federal legislation to regulate video games. In response to this threat, on July 20, 2005, the manufacturer changed the rating. As a result, the game was removed from the shelves of Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, and other stores.

[Five months later, Clinton introduced the legislation anyway. On December 16, 2005, Clinton introduced the Family Entertainment Protection Act, S.2126, a bill that would prohibit the sale of sexual or violent video games to anybody under the age of 18.

Stuff like this on her Senatorial record makes me think that she's wasn't really interested in doing anything substantive but viewed her job as merely a stepping stone to the presidency. Lots of totally calculated feel good "think of the children" and "tough war leader" bullshit saber rattling that someone mentioned upthread.

Can't fucking stand her phony ass.

No offense against your mom, I do get (finally) that a lot of women including (especially?) professional, successful women agree. I'm incredibly dismayed about it. What a country

Prejudicies are irrational, right?

http://deadspin.com/assets/resources/2008/02/obamaheismanpose.jpghttp://deadspin.com/assets/resources/2008/02/obamaheismanpose.jpg

But back to HRC: she reminds me of Daniel Plainview, in a way. Like many ambitious people, she knows naught but her own resolve to triumph. I sense no joy in the chase, or peace when it's accomplished -- you're always looking for the next campaign. That's why I'll always regard Bill Clinton as an average or below-average president.

AWZ OBAMA HIESMAN ACTION !!!!!

On March 29, 2005, Clinton called the popular video game Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas a "major threat" to morality. She said, "Children are playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them. This is a silent epidemic of media desensitization that teaches kids it’s OK to diss people because they are a woman, they’re a different color or they’re from a different place."

On one hand, I HATE when politicians mess with this stuff. On the other hand, if David Simon made the same point in a screenplay I'd immediately say OTM, because really, it's actually not cool for kids to think violence is no big deal.

AWZ OBAMA HIESMAN ACTION !!!!!

-- jhøshea, Friday, February 22, 2008 4:51 PM (24 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

But back to HRC: she reminds me of Daniel Plainview, in a way. Like many ambitious people, she knows naught but her own resolve to triumph.

a) you're stretching
b) we get it: you didn't like There Will Be Blood.

http://www.truthdig.com/images/eartothegrounduploads/AP_hillary_calculations_300.jpg
obama drinkin my milkshake :(

On the question of who's further to the left on economic policy: isn't Obama in favor of lifting the income cap for social security taxes, which Clinton has criticized as a massive tax increase?

I was like who is Daniel Plainview? thanks. As far as knowing nothing but resolve to triumph.. well, that is unprovable but can be used as a narrative to explain everything that person does in a negative way. (Now I have to see this movie which I suspect I will not like much just to see if there are other things going on with this character.)

http://www.johnmccainisyourjalopy.com/

That's why I'll always regard Bill Clinton as an average or below-average president.

Because -- unlike top tier Presidents -- Bill Clinton was too ambitious? Hmm. . .

BILL CLINTON DRINKS YOUR MILKSHAKE.

A somewhat amusing take on why Dems have tired of the Clintons:

Why Democrats Are Kicking the Clintons to the Curb

I think the view that supporting Clinton is the feminist thing to do, is the kind of identity politics that Obama is trying to transcend. I think a lot of women find Obama's move appealing. Doing so doesn't make you anti-women, though it does make you anti-a-particular-woman.

BILL CLINTON DRINKS YOUR MILKSHAKE! HE DRINKS IT UP! Better.

Because -- unlike top tier Presidents -- Bill Clinton was too ambitious? Hmm. .

Clinton was nothing BUT ambition.

I like There Will Be Blood because, to quote Obama's critics, I can project whatever I want onto that blank canvas.

Peter Beinart discusses Obama and the "white, working class vote" problem:

Courting Joe Six-Pack

Hillary on GTA was one of her best moments afaic

Why Democrats are Kicking the Clintons to the Curb - WE NEVER LIKED THEM THAT MUCH. WE LIKED THAT THEY WON.

but now we have a guy who is winninger

We like Bill when he's a Good Time Charlie, not when he's talking trash. Part of the good side of "slick" was the idea that he kept his eye on the ball (his job) even when all the Whitewater craziness was coming down on him.

Ann Richards is much more the female Bill Clinton than Hillary is.