7.9 and 8.8 Earthquakes in Japan

nuclear waste is a serious problem but with money and dedication can be worked at and minimized and maybe even (hail mary) eliminated, whereas nobody is ever going to build a coal plant that doesn't spew a gajillion tons of co2 into the atmosphere

like i would like everything to run on windmills and the sun too but since we are in a crisis maybe in the meantime we should hang out some more with Our Friend The Atom

it's not like anyone lives in north dakota anyway.

Also what if windmills come loose from their moorings, giant ninja stars beheading everyone

(i mean i know there is a thing called "clean coal" but i am not all that excited about it)

this is really a bit of a sidetrack via morbs' oppurtunist rote pessimism

the last 48 hrs don't really bring anything new to the nuclear ~issue~, tho they may have something to say for the design of one 40 yr old reactor in japan

this is not actually true. nuclear waste lasts much longer

― deej, Saturday, March 12, 2011 3:12 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

So you think global climate change is a short-term problem?

― kate78, Saturday, March 12, 2011 6:45 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

well some nuclear waste has a half life of a million years, so...

i dont understand the dismissal "oh its just a 40 year old reactor, NEWER ones..." arent we using older ones? what sense does it make to talk about newer ones that are supposedly foolproof if we're still using the older ones?

a 40 year old reactor is pretty new

i mean, who knows how this will turn out, and of course i hope its a minor issue, but this "well, this is such an unsual situation" stuff ppl bring up when a nuclear reactor is having trouble....unusual things happen all the time? do they keep saying this every time there a problem w/ a nuclear reactor?

also i know someone who's prof is doing research on the long term effects of ppl who live in communities w/ nuclear reactors (sorry, dont know how old those reactors happen to be) & they have in fact been causing mutations

no im not arguing in favor of coal power just saying we should be honest about this stuff

i mean recognize theres a lot of money invested in making things appear safer than they are & its not alarmist to recognize that nuclear energy is hardly a perfect solutino

deej is otm

imho there isn't really a way round this except lower energy use, haha

this stuff was known before the last few hours

most fervent antinuclear ppl seem to be utopians who take little account of how unpersuaded the rest of the population are by their please to reduce energy use

irl nuclear power is an imperfect solution (obv) but climate change is arguably more of a threat

please

its not alarmist to recognize that nuclear energy is hardly a perfect solutino

no, course not. but it's also not realist to say l.a. is just like pripyat.

in japan's case i think this is more a test of japanese crisis-management protocol than it is of the reactor. the evacuation, which i think a lot of people are taking as meaning SHIT IT'S GONNA BLOW (again: because pripyat was evacuated so late), may actually just mean that reactor issues are taken very seriously--a good sign.

I understand the evacuation was mostly a precaution, at least until they determine how much radiation was leaked/leaking.

Having a hard time seeing this as a con against nuclear power, per se. It wasn't the age of the plant that was the problem, or faulty safety measures or poor regulation. It was a huge fucking earthquake, one of the top 5 of the past century, that frankly nothing is guaranteed to survive (though it looks like strict Japanese building codes helped a whole lot). The nuclear power plants are just one of hundreds of massive, serious problems they're facing in Japan right now. It's like the radioactive cherry on the top of the world's worst sundae. The only bright side to any of this is that it didn't really hit any highly populated areas, because as bad as this was, it could have been 100 times more deadly.

Video from the town where 10,000 people are still missing:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/mar/12/japan-confronts-quake-devastation-video

And if you drill down, the reactor withstood the *quake*...it was the tsunami that wiped out the backup generator.

Not that I'm captain save a nuclear power plant, lol

Three Mile Island is a much, much closer comparison point but still not the same. And that doesn't have nearly the global recognition, apparently?

Its worth noting that there was an observed increase in cancer deaths following TMI, but it didn't correspond to radiation exposure. IIRC, endocrinologist Robert Sapolski speculated that elevated cortisol (the stress hormone) levels suppressed immune systems. Sometimes the only thing we have to fear is fear.

well, heres the thing: if you want nuclear plants in japan, where there are many earthquakes, there will also be tsunamis! this is what im saying. This, "well, this is a rare occurrence!" kind of stuff doesnt strike me as a very solid defense

anyway the 10k people missing is a much more serious thing to worry abt at the moment :(

uhm dont build them in coastal areas then xp

anyway the 10k people missing is a much more serious thing to worry abt at the moment :(

indeed

Its worth noting that there was an observed increase in cancer deaths following TMI, but it didn't correspond to radiation exposure. IIRC, endocrinologist Robert Sapolski speculated that elevated cortisol (the stress hormone) levels suppressed immune systems. Sometimes the only thing we have to fear is fear.

― Competent Person Statement (Sanpaku), Saturday, March 12, 2011 2:19 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

That's really interesting and afaik the increase in cancer deaths linked to radiation after TMI was pretty much limited to literally a couple of cases.

TMI being relatively unfamous is unfortunate because it's an example of a very serious disaster being almost totally contained. and that was before chernobyl, when it's probably fair to guess that people took this stuff less seriously than they are now!

Japan is kinda screwed on the energy front. No natural resources, not enough sun for solar, limited shallow shoreline with trade winds for appreciable wind power. Its either nukes or imported coal/LNG, and after the experience of WWII they're not going to expose themselves to that kind of supply risk. U308 can be stockpiled in quantity, and breeders can stretch that uranium almost indefinitely.

yeah i mean i figure they're stuck w /it

i guess the question for them right now would be, how is it possible that our backup generators cant put up w/ the not exactly historically unprecedented natural disasters (even if scope is unprecedented), and what kind of regulations should be in place that prepares for these eventualities

i dont generally trust -- and am considerably more wary of the u.s.'s state of preparedness -- the government or industries to properly prepare for these sorts of things

""Apart from that, these reactors are designed to work at a high seismicity zone, although what has happened is beyond the impact the plants were designed to withstand," Hlyhalo said."

i mean, doesnt the idea that we've set these up over a fault line but made them able to withstand only some earthquakes, seem a bit ridic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M535NGr9vbo

i dont generally trust -- and am considerably more wary of the u.s.'s state of preparedness -- the government or industries to properly prepare for these sorts of things

given that the US can't provide decent infrastructure in the absence of any kind of disaster and recent past performance, I'm inclined to agree with you.

these videos are so heartbreaking

Kinda cool:

Following the nuclear accident at Tokai, Ibaraki in 1999, physicists Masuchika Kohno and Yoshinobu Koizumi showed how (the 5-yen) coin could be used to estimate neutron dosage to the surrounding population, by measuring its zinc isotope ratios. They write:

The Japanese 5-yen coin is about 22 millimeters in diameter and 1.5 mm thick, weighs 3.75 grams and has a central hole 5 mm wide. We chose this coin for monitoring neutron exposure because it is widely circulated, the zinc content is precisely controlled, and the 65Zn generated has a convenient half-life (244.1 days) and gamma ray energy emission (1,115.5 keV). To obtain a record of the dosage of neutrons released as a result of the accident, we collected exposed coins from people's houses at distances 100–550 m from the facility.

They concluded that the coin could offer information about the total neutron effect during the accident, and about shielding by modern Japanese houses, given that the coins were recovered from indoors.

Pennies could function similarly in the U.S.

i mean, doesnt the idea that we've set these up over a fault line but made them able to withstand only some earthquakes, seem a bit ridic?

I'm ballparking the number here, but this earthquake was stronger than like, 99% of all earthquakes easily, right? I keep hearing it's between the 5th and 7th strongest on record.

I keep watching these videos and feeling somewhat guilty for being so voyeuristic, but I continue to be astounded at the enormity of the disaster and how quickly it happened.

strongest in japan's history, at least.

it's not like the other energy providers are any more morally upstanding

Yeah, I'm more worried about the immoralists WHO CAN KILL US FASTER

your choices are kind of limited man

honestly i don't know what you think is even distantly possible

point remains, dismantling nuclear doesn't solve the problem

i'm not entirely unsympathetic to morbs politically but since it's consciously played for effect at this point, it seems a lil gauche to be harping on about american nuke industry lobbying in a thread about an earthquake in japan

that's me, gauche.

i don't know what you think is even distantly possible

death, death, death

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLZVZflfUas

Before and after.

I keep watching these videos and feeling somewhat guilty for being so voyeuristic, but I continue to be astounded at the enormity of the disaster and how quickly it happened.

― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Saturday, March 12, 2011 2:37 PM (47 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah, same. They're just awesome in the original sense of the word. It's sort of unbelievable what nature can do. I think that's part of why I keep watching some of them.

rereading that it seems like such an obvious thing to say :/

no you're totally right...feel the same way myself.

plus so much of it scares me that I feel like the more I understand, the less scared i get

Nothing wrong with that. You can have empathy without being scared, and understanding is pretty much the key to functioning and helping when disaster strikes.

yeah a lot of what people worry might be voyeurism is just natural curiosity, wanting to understand, if youre worried that youre not caring enough, thats a sign that you care

My brain keeps telling itself, "Gosh, it sure is a good thing that every one of those people evacuated those towns before the wave hit, right?"

fuck, is that a person running across at 1:03 in the second from last vid?!

With something like a massive earthquake and tsunami, pretty much you hope that the emergency personall have good training, earthquake-oriented building codes have been in place for a long time, and there is a tsunami warning system. Because that is about all you can do ahead of time.

During the quake, try to get into the open, into a door way, or underneath a sturdy desk or table. Then hope for the best. If the tsunami warning goes off, don't take anything you can't grab in 30 seconds and take off for the highest ground.

Afterward, if you are lucky enough to be a survivor and unhurt, hunt for the injured and trapped and try to help them. Beware of aftershocks, because they will happen and can be very strong in themselves.

After years of curiosity about such disasters, the above are the main points I've learned. Anything more complex I should know has not stuck with me.

P.S. My wife and I do have disaster kits in our cars - 5 gallon buckets with lids, filled with some food (such as canned sardines and hard candy), water and a few other good emergency items, like matches, plastic sheeting and a wool hat. We have a bit more elaborate supplies at home.

Maybe irrelevant right at the moment, but I can't even imagine what the clean-up operation will entail.

My brain keeps telling itself, "Gosh, it sure is a good thing that every one of those people evacuated those towns before the wave hit, right?"

Well that's the thing. The BBC had a disaster special last night with all the regular widescreen raw nature footage, plus one horribly incongruous shot of screaming workers racing from an alley into the street while concrete rained down. I mean, I understand why they don't normally show those shots, but part of me feels if you want to rubberneck, you should have to see real human beings in amongst it.

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