The Sopranos Vs. The Wire

yeah that character is a problem. feel like s1ocki pointed that out at some point, maybe in this thread?

fwiw theres some real glass houses stuff to the psychoanalysis of wire fans, as if fans of a show abt hypermasculine mafia archetypes wouldnt have its own problematic fandom

but i guess the wire has the added OOOH RACE thing to throw in there so theres that

i do enjoy watching tv shows with more than one nonwhite character in them, full disclosure

"(one of the weirder exceptions here btw would be what's-his-name the criminal lawyer, who is an EVIL JEW WHO ONLY CARES ABOUT MONEY)"

I love that EVIL JEW.

oh, yeah, that's why "exclusive" is there. almost everyone in the wire, even someone like landsman who at first is set up as evil, cares about other people and about society and stuff. it's just that they are also looking out for themselves, and the combined weight of that is what's so hard to tug against.

― difficult listening hour, Thursday, 10 March 2011 21:05 (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

this is really banal shit tho, 'ppl who aren't entirely bad do bad things'

well it wasn't his whole point, he was just explaining why you didn't really catch him in a contradiction

they aren't strict contradictions but the subtraction leaves only that rather meagre notion

it's basically true to simon's worldview tho

this is really banal shit tho, 'ppl who aren't entirely bad do bad things'

the point isn't that people do bad things, or that people sometimes don't care about other people, it's that the cumulative not-caring-about-other-people of a whole bunch of people over time creates systems and situations that are really difficult to turn around. like the wire is constantly making the "this person is acting as is basically required of him for the preservation of his job, and look how destructive it is, but look how difficult it would be for him to act differently" point about all kinds of different people with all kinds of different jobs, and the GIANT DICKENS/ZOLA SCOPE that can sometimes make the show seem shallow or didactic or less deep than the presumably-more-shakespearean sopranos is necessary to get the perspective the show needs to figure out how these people's jobs got this way.

(even though there is plenty of shakespearean stuff in the wire, like all that stringer/avon stuff above.)

i love tv that is about people on their jobs. i guess the sopranos is about that, too.

I love that EVIL JEW.

i love the part where he comes down to the police station to do something EVIL, i forget what, and says to landsman or someone "YOU KNOW YOU DRAGGED ME OUT OF SEDER"

the point isn't that people do bad things, or that people sometimes don't care about other people, it's that the cumulative not-caring-about-other-people of a whole bunch of people over time creates systems and situations that are really difficult to turn around. like the wire is constantly making the "this person is acting as is basically required of him for the preservation of his job, and look how destructive it is, but look how difficult it would be for him to act differently" point about all kinds of different people with all kinds of different jobs, and the GIANT DICKENS/ZOLA SCOPE that can sometimes make the show seem shallow or didactic or less deep than the presumably-more-shakespearean sopranos is necessary to get the perspective the show needs to figure out how these people's jobs got this way.

― difficult listening hour, Thursday, 10 March 2011 21:20 (5 minutes ago)

this all true but it's p fucking limited stuff, there's a reason kids read dickens and nobody outside of france/college reads zola

if i could just establish that all wire detractors have no use for dickens maybe i could relax and stop reading this thread

also, you're p fucking limited stuff

haha that's p good for the relentlessly secondrate horseshoe xox

this thread is either the best or worst such opposition on ilx cuz most ppl like both shows, i liked the wire a lot

both shows take place in the mad men universe, god willing.

a show abt hypermasculine mafia archetypes wouldnt have its own problematic fandom

this is wrong. Sopranos is as much about the women as it is the men. which you cannot say about the Wire, which is even MORE invested in hypermasculine archetypes than the Sopranos is.

im not 'wrong' shakey, its obv commendable / important that sopranos is about women (& fyi wire totally has female characters playing important significant roles too?) but that doesnt mean its not also about male mafia archetypes! i mean we're already talking abt ridic strawpeople who apparently only like the wire bcuz they get off on xyz so why isnt it conceivable that, if i accept those strawppl exist, they might also exist for sopranos?

youre blinded by partisanship here

which is even MORE invested in hypermasculine archetypes than the Sopranos is.

― You hurt me deeply. You hurt me deeply in my heart. (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, March 10, 2011 3:53 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark

like how are u even measuring this

by the yardstick that all the major characters in the Wire are male and all the female characters are, for the most part, terribly written and one-dimensional

i dont understand how that is a measurement of 'hypermasculine archetypes' -- isnt that a measurement of 'multi dimensional female characters'? but w/e, im arguing with shakey mo, time for a break

the men: hard-drinkin, hard-livin detectives, young black thugs, old hardassed corrupt politicians/administrators, blue collar Joe Luncpails etc

the women: lesbians (only one of which really has a good arc/fully fleshed out character), that terrible bird lady politician, the pixie-ish redhead lawyer with a heart of gold

and then there's Namond's mom, who is just a monster, but hardly on the multi-dimensional level of Livia

saying your idea of "oh noes our american cities" being what resonates, actually probably will not resonate nearly as immediately and universally as "having a family is complicated"

― gawka flocka flamewar (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, March 10, 2011 12:01 PM (1 hour ago)

and there are tons of good tv shows and movies about complicated families ... and far fewer that engage the details of industrial decline/drug problems etc. in American cities.

and there are tons of good tv shows and movies about complicated families

well now that two and a half men is off the air...

if I want to watch a tv show about complicated families, I'd rather watch 6 Feet Under or Roseanne, than the Sopranos

Kima, Beadie, Rhonda, Donette and Brianna were all worthwhile and not too one-dimensional female characters. was the cast pretty male-dominated? sure. is that a really valuable stick to beat the show with? ehh.

swag the dog (The Reverend), Wednesday, 6 January 2010 13:54 (1 year ago)

Namond's mom was hilarious.

i dunno - maybe I've just seen too many Coppola movies to find the concept of the Sopranos appealing.

was the cast pretty male-dominated? sure. is that a really valuable stick to beat the show with? ehh.

fair enough. but it does make it ridiculous ground from which to cast aspersions on the Sopranos as male-dominated/oriented, which is just innacurate.

there really aren't a whole lot of decent female characters in the wire, it's true; but yeah like deej says, if we're gonna bring up the one white guy i know who was super super super into repeating dave chappelle and samuel l jackson catch phrases in high school and is now indeed super into the wire, and who i'm sure is representative of a bunch of others like him, presumably we can bring up everyone who's ever thought mafiosos were AWESOME AND BADASS. or not because it's a dumb way to talk about shows.

i liked nick sobotka's girlfriend but maybe that's just because she was ADORABLE.

I prefer not to speculate on audience strawmen, it's just pointless. it's kidna deej's MO tho

swag the dog (The Reverend), Wednesday, 6 January 2010 13:54 (1 year ago)

― gawka flocka flamewar (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, March 10, 2011 5:15 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

word -- i even searched 4 this

that was Whiney building the strawman, wasn't it?

a lot of people (not only in this thread) build that strawman and between that one and the LOL YOU LIKE SEASON 2 I WONDER WHY one they've kinda got you coming and going

tbh I've just been ignoring any posts that have to do with speculating as to who likes what for what hypothetical reasons

Pretty sure I'm one of the 30: Maybe I said this elsewhere, but The Sopranos' great subject was the subconscious, and this hit me personally harder than even the greatest stretches of The Wire. But that's really saying something.

defensive crackers itt ought to be mindful that this thread only went down that storied route after hm and myself cast aspersions on retard king k3vvy k's bad faith racial politicking

i guess most of u just like the wire cuz it's a great show!

shakey my only point was that its ridic to build wire strawmen bcuz you could do the same thing w/ a show about mafia dons. i wasnt building strawmen, just pointing out that doing so in defense of one of hollywood's timeless archetypes of violent baddassness is kind of a glass houses / throwing stones situation

wiremen, surely.

pretty sure k3vin was making a joke about the margin of the wire's win + number of black people in each show + absurd post-obama tea party convictions re: the balance of power in america; but i am not him so i guess i cannot confirm that he does not think that white people are always getting the short end of the stick

oh never mind i see what is going on, oh well

deej - don't worry - you were otm

fair enough deej, no worries

xp

pretty sure k3vin was making a joke about the margin of the wire's win + number of black people in each show + absurd post-obama tea party convictions re: the balance of power in america; but i am not him so i guess i cannot confirm that he does not think that white people are always getting the short end of the stick

― difficult listening hour, Thursday, 10 March 2011 22:41 (3 minutes ago)

nah he really is that stupid, but he'll appresh the alibi i'm sure

deej - don't worry - you were otm

― sarahel, Thursday, 10 March 2011 22:43 (2 minutes ago) Permalink

this goes w/out saying -- that post was abt tamtam butthurting me while i was banned