The Sopranos Vs. The Wire

the wire is about a lot more than inner ciy crime -- its about drugs/educational institutions / the behavior of ineffecient/corrupt beauracracies / incarceration industry / race & class / the destruction of unions / (somewhat hamhandidly) the responsiility of the press etc.

i think ppl like it for lots of reasons & i dont know about anyone else but for me personally i think a show that grapples w/ not just the death of amer. city but also the ongoing war on 'drugs'/poor/black ppl in inner cities, the incarceration industry, etc. is going to be more refreshing for discussing issues that are imo central to who we are as a country right now.

this isn't really talking points stuff, every ~right thinking~ person knows these things are terrible! and the wire does a pretty good job of showing them, but you could (and ppl do) use the same logic to valourize crappy ken loach films that say the right things about social problems

the psychology of mafia families is less compelling to me

dude the mafia family psychology angle is a METAPHOR

think harder.

its about drugs/educational institutions / the behavior of ineffecient/corrupt beauracracies / incarceration industry / race & class / the destruction of unions /

Sopranos hits all these k thx bye

the difference is Sopranos is not super-literal DO YOU SEE about hitting those themes

well, i mean, aside from shakey, we all p much agree these are both compelling shows right? its not that i think the subject matter makes it 'better.' its that i think it explains why it might resonate more w/ people now, it says stuff about things that feel immediately consequential & that we are as a society complicit in. regardless of whether or not one show is 'better' -- acted, written, whatever -- since they're both done really really well i think it makes sense to look to the subject matter for reasons these poll results seem so imbalanced

not sure what u are saying here

― deej, Thursday, March 10, 2011 2:50 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

saying your idea of "oh noes our american cities" being what resonates, actually probably will not resonate nearly as immediately and universally as "having a family is complicated"

i think it makes sense to look to the subject matter for reasons these poll results seem so imbalanced

― deej, Thursday, March 10, 2011 3:00 PM (10 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

an avenue for college age crackers to sublimate their shitty racist background via an overcompensatory love for friendly fictional black ppl

― maxwell's silva hamartia (nakhchivan), Thursday, March 10, 2011 1:45 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

aside from shakey,

I dunno how many times I have to say it (a few more, evidently) I think these are both good shows. I enjoyed most of the Wire, it is good stuff. But Sopranos is like next level/so much better.

otm

sopranos does hit broader themes than mafia psychology of course, abt violence etc, but its much less specific / is still 'about' mafioso ish. which is fine for art, doesnt mean its worse obv -- but its a v different way of going about it & no it doesnt really engage w/ the same issues the wire does, it certainly doesnt go about explaining the behavior of those institutions the way the wire does

shakey relax

that nakh post is bs

deej which show do you think is better

i for one am shocked that whiney agrees with a theory that presumes motives of the ppl voting for what he disagrees with in a condescending way

deej which show do you think is better

― swag the dog (J0rdan S.), Thursday, March 10, 2011 2:04 PM (33 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i prefer the wire but its v close

if you're otm-ing a nakchivan post about secret white ppl racism that also uses the word "crackers" then i think it might be time to retire from the discussion

is all i'm saying

mostly for the reasons i stated above -- i like the journalistic aspects of the wire, the way it relies on 'how things really work in the real world' as a framework for fiction ... obv as a fan of rap music its a style of presentation v close to my 'thing' ... this reality rap, i really go through it

I enjoyed most of the Wire, it is good stuff. But Sopranos is like next level/so much better.

― You hurt me deeply. You hurt me deeply in my heart. (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 10 March 2011 20:03 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

totally

nonwhite people never watch the wire btw

also ilx is trying to give me a heart attack

oh no white college kids

they're coming to misapply your critical lenses

it certainly doesnt go about explaining the behavior of those institutions the way the wire does

I consider this a virtue. Sopranos shows, the Wire tells. Let's consider, for example, the issue of recidivism. When Avon gets out of jail and returns to the street, we've witnessed the entire sequence of events from his crimes, to his arrest, to his trial, to his jail time, to his return to the Barksdale organization and his subsequent problems. This takes what, 3 seasons? and is portrayed very literally, in minutiae. The audience is given a very clear picture of how this guy is not reformed, and in some ways, returns to the streets an even more committed criminal than he was before. After which he comes into conflict with his former partner, and is murdered.

The Sopranos addresses this topic almost completely differently. Richie Aprile, Feech La Manna, and Tony Blundetto all deal with getting out of jail and adjusting to their new lives differently. they each get a few episodes (well, Richie gets almost a whole season, more or less), and how they served their time (lol Richie did yoga), what they did before, etc. is mostly dealt with eliptically and carefully woven into the fabric of the show through references to previous events (the card game that Tony and Jackie stuck up to make their name, etc.), it's addressed via asides and small details. The way Tony deals with Feech is explicitly related to his learning from what happened with Richie ("nip it in the bud", he says), and it's taken as a given that both guys once out would return to their lives of crime and cause problems for everybody. Feech's downfall is covered by a couple of scenes that maybe take up 10 minutes - we don't even see him get arrested, just the look of resignation on his face when his parole officer asks to see his garage. Blundetto's conflict with trying to go straight is so well-done (also written by Matthew Weiner, fwiw) - no one really believes him, most figure he's working an angle, and when he slips back into doing hits it's out of a carefully portrayed jealousy of Tony's financial security and the resignation that it's the easiest way out for him. He has a sudden, almost totally unexpected outburst of violence when he beats his Korean benefactor. What is going through Blundetto's head is never really made explicit or obvious, you have to tease it out from the way he handles different situations and people (getting his truck stolen, resisting Tony's offers of assistance, moodily hanging around Tony's pool with his kids, handling his Korean boss, his relationship with his girlfriend). It's just way more nuanced. By the end it's clear that even with his trying to go straight and having a career path open to him, the pull of easy money and cathartic violence is too much. Blundetto's dilemma just packs so much more of an emotional wallop than Barksdale's cold "I'M A GANGSTA AND I ALWAYS WILL BE" posturing, there's just so much more depth there.

xp

I mean Blundetto seems like a real, 3-dimensional person. Avon is like a caricature by comparison.

the orange is the color orange, all over. the apple never once is colored orange.

re: recidivism depth, what about that boxing dude? and poops (I forget his nickname -- it's like poops or snots or something) at foot locker?

the blundetto story was probably the weakest in the sopranos, v much david chase padding out an extra season at the behest of hbo

the feech le manna parole violation was really neatly done tho

"The audience is given a very clear picture of how this guy is not reformed, and in some ways, returns to the streets an even more committed criminal than he was before. After which he comes into conflict with his former partner, and is murdered."

Avon goes back to jail.

ts: cast of 80 vs. cast of 8

I consider this a virtue. Sopranos shows, the Wire tells. Let's consider, for example, the issue of recidivism. When Avon gets out of jail and returns to the street, we've witnessed the entire sequence of events from his crimes, to his arrest, to his trial, to his jail time, to his return to the Barksdale organization and his subsequent problems. This takes what, 3 seasons? and is portrayed very literally, in minutiae. The audience is given a very clear picture of how this guy is not reformed, and in some ways, returns to the streets an even more committed criminal than he was before. After which he comes into conflict with his former partner, and is murdered.

The Sopranos addresses this topic almost completely differently. Richie Aprile, Feech La Manna, and Tony Blundetto all deal with getting out of jail and adjusting to their new lives differently. they each get a few episodes (well, Richie gets almost a whole season, more or less), and how they served their time (lol Richie did yoga), what they did before, etc. is mostly dealt with eliptically and carefully woven into the fabric of the show through references to previous events (the card game that Tony and Jackie stuck up to make their name, etc.), it's addressed via asides and small details. The way Tony deals with Feech is explicitly related to his learning from what happened with Richie ("nip it in the bud", he says), and it's taken as a given that both guys once out would return to their lives of crime and cause problems for everybody. Feech's downfall is covered by a couple of scenes that maybe take up 10 minutes - we don't even see him get arrested, just the look of resignation on his face when his parole officer asks to see his garage. Blundetto's conflict with trying to go straight is so well-done (also written by Matthew Weiner, fwiw) - no one really believes him, most figure he's working an angle, and when he slips back into doing hits it's out of a carefully portrayed jealousy of Tony's financial security and the resignation that it's the easiest way out for him. He has a sudden, almost totally unexpected outburst of violence when he beats his Korean benefactor. What is going through Blundetto's head is never really made explicit or obvious, you have to tease it out from the way he handles different situations and people (getting his truck stolen, resisting Tony's offers of assistance, moodily hanging around Tony's pool with his kids, handling his Korean boss, his relationship with his girlfriend). It's just way more nuanced. By the end it's clear that even with his trying to go straight and having a career path open to him, the pull of easy money and cathartic violence is too much. Blundetto's dilemma just packs so much more of an emotional wallop than Barksdale's cold "I'M A GANGSTA AND I ALWAYS WILL BE" posturing, there's just so much more depth there.

but wire has words like "burner"

the sopranos has a pretty huge cast, i mean u get to know the family of the supervising analyst of tony's therapist.....

not a lot of ponderous backstory for every crim with a walk on role in three episodes tho

recidivism depth, what about that boxing dude?

yeah this guy's arc is pretty good, altho iirc it doesn't really resolve in any way, his character just kinda fades into the bkgd.

dude is also funny in Always Sunny lol

Avon goes back to jail.

ah shit I knew I was misremembering something. it's Bell that gets murdered, right?

lol shakes bell getting murdered is like the turning point of the show!

a day that will live in infamy :(

i started season 1 of the sopranos at some point recently because of this damn thread. it was pretty good. i should finish it.

Sopranos shows, the Wire tells.

at no point in the wire does a character point to avon barksdale and say "this guy is not reformed and in some ways has returned to the street an even more committed criminal than he was before"

also you're leaving out the giant ironic tragic joke that takes several seasons to set up wherein stringer is portrayed to us as the smart ambitious forward-thinker who wants to go legit and is held back by his childhood friend avon's "posturing", and during his period of total control of the organization in avon's absence takes it in a direction that seems to us WHITE COLLEGE KIDS to be productive and sane and disconnected from avon's apparently irrational honor killings, and to be making an argument for the hoary old analogy between the drug trade and good ol' standard "legitimate" american entrepreneurism; and stringer "comes into conflict" with avon not because avon is a gangsta cartoon but because avon believes there are certain things about the socioeconomic situation into which they were born and to the top of which they've risen that make it fundamentally separate from and unable to successfully interface with the different one stringer wants to enter, i.e., avon thinks the analogy is incomplete; and only after he has sent his closest friend to prison for life in order to ensure his total severance from his origins is it brought home to stringer that he has made a mistake and that he has not escaped but is in fact being cynically used by all the people he looks up to as "legitimate", people whose fundamental sharkiness and sociopathy avon always understood better than stringer. then stringer is murdered, right after understanding this.

i mean that is what is going on with that arc, not "sometimes there is recidivism".

ts: cast of 80 vs. cast of 8

lol waht both of these shows have HUGE casts

yeah, the fluctuation in which one looks like he knows what's up in the stringer-avon relationship over the first three seasons is one of my favorite parts of the wire

xp

at no point in the wire does a character point to avon barksdale and say "this guy is not reformed and in some ways has returned to the street an even more committed criminal than he was before"

this is a hilarious take on avon's characterization tbf

Bell is a more interesting character than Avon, that's for sure

show v. tell is some made-up percy lubbock stuff anyway

at no point in the wire does a character point to avon barksdale and say "this guy is not reformed and in some ways has returned to the street an even more committed criminal than he was before

O RLY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TuvmqJ1SWI&tracker=False&NR=1

I think Sopranos fanboys are kidding themselves if they can't admit the show got unwatchably soap-opera-ish at times in both Seasons 4 and 5.

And I say this as someone who was a fanboy up til then!

yes, law enforcement is pissed that avon got out. it doesn't mean that that's the purpose of his character.

xxp

sopranos had a lot of high points and low points, wire more consistent but less interesting imo, can we lock thread now

No we have to accuse other posters of "not getting it" first!

it doesn't mean that that's the purpose of his character.

I didn't say that it was...?

My point was that the Wire handles recidivism in this really didactic, fairly hamfisted way. and the clip I posted is a perfect example of that.

Sopranos was also guilty of characters doing out of character things to move plots along toward the end...also enjoy how Tony killed or had killed 70% of his social circle