2008 Primaries Thread 2: THE QUICKENING

this seems like such a minor policy point that doesn't warrant being blown up into some huge ideological divide wtf

they're both gunning for universal healthcare and realize that the transition is going to be slow and painful, they just have mildly different approaches. where they DO really differ (as Obama banged on about last night) is that he has a better chance of getting it accomplished because he's a less divisive figure and Hillary's already shown that she completely fucked it up once already BY BEING A DIVISIVE FIGURE.

x-post

ive noticed a mentality w/in many republican arguments in the mainstream (ignoring the coultergeists, i mean) see themselves as the party of, like, sensible solutions. a lot of alignment w/ republicans on issues is related to the relative 'everybody relax'-ness vs. the relatively shrill liberal freak-outs. i.e. wouldnt it be fun if global warming weren't actually an issue and we could just be like, 'yo hippies chill out'?

Anyway i think obama's appeal to a lot of these dudes is how sensible he comes across, rather than shrill and the liberal version of fearmongering

But then I've also had a going assumption among a lot of (guy) friends (not ILXors) that they wouldn't have a knee-jerk "yeah right, like I'd ever vote for Hillary, I can't stand her" reaction and I was wrong about that too.

-- daria-g, Friday, February 22, 2008 4:07 PM (18 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

you really dont know any women who can't stand hillary?

lol ny

oh wait dc

whatever

Obama may actually manage to get some compromises out of the Republican minority - Hillary's idea of "reaching across the aisle" is to vote for stupid shit like flag burning amendments and war resolutions and hassling Iran

x-post

i know chicago is obama town but regardless pretty much everyone woman i know are pretty anti-hillary, sometimes to a stronger degree than i am.

you really dont know any women who can't stand hillary?

Personally? No, actually, I don't.

wtf @ that sentence, you get what i'm saying

every woman i know is pretty

huh? that's the first i've heard of the centrism of his policy people, like, ever.

"markets" (that is "people making decisions about what to do") will have their effect on health policy in any case. it's true that having 100% participation would lower costs rather than an opt-in system, but there's no way penalties are going to get everyone close to 100%. you can carrot-and-stick the populace as much as you want but there will always be people falling out (or trying to get out) of whatever system you build.

xp now now dudes, "looney" is a bit much

lol many xps

hilary's taking that the position that since she tried and failed getting universal healthcare through before, now she's modified her plan into something that could maybe get passed, right?

xp

Where are you getting that from, Daria? I need to read up on that subject a little, but several sources suggest that Obama's economic advisory team -- and his economic policies -- are generally left of HRC.

For instance, at the broadest level, consider this 2007 WSJ Story, which says that "While Mr. Obama's economic platform is still in its formative stages, interviews with his aides and a review of his congressional record and speeches suggest that Obamanomics may place him somewhat to the left of New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton."

More later, when I have time. But I'm not pushing a viewpoint too hard; I'm more curious about what you've read that's left you with the opposite impression.(n.1)

_______________________________________
(n.1) By contrast, I've read a lot about the foreign-policy advisory teams of both Democratic candidates, and it's clear that -- in that area -- Obama's advisors are generally to the left of HRC's advisors.

Personally? No, actually, I don't.

-- daria-g, Friday, February 22, 2008 4:09 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

ok well i find that weird but i promise you that its a pretty widespread belief w/ progressive women in my state - that hillary is too divisive, too centrist etc.

yeah right - the reason her plan went kablooey the first time around (and Obama pointed this out last night and rightly so) was that she was terrible at handling other peoples' ideas and alienated key people she would need to get anything passed (some even from her own party, like Leahy). Seeing as how she's as alienating as ever at this point in her career, its hard to believe that a second try would end any differently.

x-post

I know a number of women who don't like Hillary. My wife's opinion of her changed pretty dramatically over the course of the primary.

hilary's taking the position that since she got bamboozled into supporting a terrible war she can use that experience going forward to uh do awz stuff!

ive read that obama has a fairly moderate economic team, actually
his foreign policy team is definitely far to the left of hillary's

(other women = my mom, young lesbian engineer coworker, one of my bosses, my bandmate, etc.)

(^^ daniel's note there) considering the presidency is almost entirely responsible for foreign policy, while domestic policy falls more heavily on congress, i put less weight on the domestic differences between O and H when i made my decisions anyway.

But, I'm really talking about people I know personally, not generalizations. A lot of guys I've known for years who pretty well are left to far-left seemed to have dismissed out of hand the very possibility of ever supporting HRC a long time ago to the point where, now, it seems like they're just sarcastic about her. All the women I personally know who I've talked about this with maybe aren't all voting for her but don't react the same way.

But yeah, there are surely a lot of very anti-Hillary women as well. I guess I've just been struck pretty profoundly in the last couple months by the sense there's a complete gulf between my worldview and that of a lot of people where I wouldn't have thought I'd ever see one. Maybe it's just that we all spent eight years agreeing on how much Bush sucks.

WASHINGTON, Feb. 22 (UPI) -- The U.S. Secret Service Friday denied reports that security measures at a recent Barack Obama rally in Texas were relaxed or deviated from established plans.

Secret Service spokesman Eric Zahren said there was no order from the Secret Service to stop screening people going to the Obama rally Wednesday at Dallas's Reunion Arena. He said that the event's security plans didn't involve having each participant pass through a magnetometer, as may be the case at other events.

The Fort Worth (Texas) Star-Telegram reported that some police at the event expressed concern about people not passing through metal detectors.

"Any allegations to the fact that we had suspended screening or deviated from the original security plan would be entirely inaccurate," Zahren said.

Obama, D-Ill., spoke before some 17,000 supporters at the rally ahead of the March 4 primary election in Texas. There were no security-related incidents.

While stressing that security preparations are different for each venue and event, Zahren said officials were happy with the security plan for the rally at Reunion Arena and the way it was implemented.

Limited use of metal detectors "in no way constituted a security lapse at this venue," Zahren said, adding that the security measures were developed with Dallas-area law enforcement personnel.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=upiUPI-20080222-125522-8554&show_article=1

i know many lesbians who don't like hillary.

oh come no one but daria likes hillary

The only women I know who support Clinton are over age 60 (e.g. my mother, and wives of senior colleagues). At our caucus the Obama section was packed with women; so was the Clinton one, but it was much smaller. Now I know: lol Kansas, we don't count, etc., but I gather this is pretty typical in the midwest.

I guess I've just been struck pretty profoundly in the last couple months by the sense there's a complete gulf between my worldview and that of a lot of people where I wouldn't have thought I'd ever see one. Maybe it's just that we all spent eight years agreeing on how much Bush sucks.

That's a great point. I'm probably more moderate than many of the people in this thread, but Bush hatred has been a great unifier among all left-leaning minds for the last 7 years.

you really dont know any women who can't stand hillary?

_____________________________

Personally? No, actually, I don't.

Plenty are out there, trust me. I spoke at length to the wife of one of my law partners recently. She was in the top 10 in her law class and is extremely bright. She's also Cuban-American, if that matters. She hates HRC, and it stems from HRC staying with Bill Clinton after he admitted his affairs. It's hardwired in her DNA that HRC stayed with Bill Clinton only because she had designs on a future political office. Based on that, she'll never see HRC as anything but cold and calculating and willing to put her personal ambitions above all else.

You can't generalize, I know, but I've been amazed by the amount of women I've met who can't stand HRC, and would never consider voting for her.

BTW, this, to me, is one of the biggest reasons Obama is surging ahead. Yes, he's an inspiring speaker and a very smart, savvy politician. But I think now that the GE is coming into focus, Democratic voters have increasing grave concerns about HRC's ability to win in November, and that's pushing lots of people into Obama's camp (they're looking for an alternative to HRC, and an inspiring alternative is even better).

some even from her own party, like Leahy Moynihan

sorry, confusing my senators (again)

Oh, re economics:
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/22/85820/0188 is a recent piece, but this comment
http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/2/22/85820/0188/12#12
links to a couple of essays about some of his advisers.

I wouldn't have tuned in to it if he hadn't been to the right of HRC on the health care issue
http://openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4004
& saying stuff about social security crisis.

Krugman's been attacking Obama like crazy for months, and again I couldn't quite put my finger on it other than he liked Edwards, but..

YES HE SOMETIMES USES CENTRIST RHETORIC. THIS IS BECAUSE HE THINKS IT'S MORE LIKELY TO PRODUCE LEFTIST RESULTS. RESULTS THAT MAY BE FURTHER TO THE LEFT THAN HILLARY. STOP BEING SO LITERAL.

Krugman's problems with Obama are of a more personal nature. Krugman's quite rational otherwise, but if he's your primary source about Obama's economic policies and instincts, I'd be suspicious.

(xp)

Maybe it's just that we all spent eight years agreeing on how much Bush sucks.

-- daria-g, Friday, February 22, 2008 4:18 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

yeah this is otm

this kind of colossal fuckup should not be counted as experience

the most damning thing about Hillary's campaign, I think, is the revelation that she's basically the same kind of manager as Bush is.

You can't generalize, I know, but I've been amazed by the amount of women I've met who can't stand HRC, and would never consider voting for her.

Yeah. Sometimes I wonder how the feminist movement ever happened in the first place. For real. Far as staying with Bill because of designs on future political office, I don't think it's true but I wouldn't actually care if it were, I don't know why it's anyone's business, unless ambition is unforgivable because you think someone should be off being a victim instead. The list of politicians who stay married to the same person because of designs on future political office is very, very, very long, it's just the usual way it goes is the one who's cheating has the designs on higher office.

politically i've always thought HRC was ok, B/B+ maybe, and would make a fine enough president, certainly able to repair a lot of the damage of the past 8 years. but this was a political and intellectual position somewhat against my emotional reaction which is, and has always been, that she is just straight up irritating to listen to.

i think most people react to politicians emotionally first and decide which facts support that reaction. i've tried not to (really!), but there it is.

FWIW, I agree with you, Daria, in your above post.

She's also Cuban-American, if that matters. She hates HRC, and it stems from HRC staying with Bill Clinton after he admitted his affairs. It's hardwired in her DNA that HRC stayed with Bill Clinton only because she had designs on a future political office. Based on that, she'll never see HRC as anything but cold and calculating and willing to put her personal ambitions above all else.

This is EXACTLY why my mom, a moderate Republican with a college degree, can't stand her.

Krugman's been attacking Obama like crazy for months

i think it went something like this

early Krugman: Obama ... hmm he's ok
later Krugman: Obama's pretty bad
Obama camp: wait, earlier you said he was ok
Krugman: YOU DARE CHALLENGE ME, WTF, OBAMA SUXXX

total ego driven tantrum. that "Hate Springs Eternal" column was heinous.

That's one Hillary criticism that I'm not a fan of. It may be plausible, but I agree that the reason she didn't leave him isn't really anyone's business.

I don't either, but it's a generational (and maybe cultural) phenomenon. My mom, a Cuban-American, is a firmly pro-choice who knows she's the equal of any man, yet shit like what happened in '98 unearths stuff we don't understand.

Total double standard. Why they stay together is their business and in fact it may be less that Hillary is a cold, calculating power hungry bitch than maybe she still loves the guy she married over 30 years ago and they found a way to work something out. Who t f cares?

Hillary Threatened To “Demonize” Anyone Who Stood In The Way Of Her Health Care Plan. At a retreat for Senate Democrats, Hillary was asked by Bill Bradley, “whether the Clinton’s failure to meet their promise of submitting health care legislation to Congress in one hundred days… would make it more difficult to win passage… Perhaps some substantive changes might be required in the interest of realism, Bradley suggested. No, Hillary responded icily, there would be no changes because delay or not, the White House would ‘demonize’ members of Congress and the medical establishment who would use the interim to alter the administration’s plan or otherwise stand in its way.”

Ø Bill Bradley And Pat Moynihan Never Forgave Hillary For Treating Them As Enemies. “Bill Bradley and Pat Moynihan later said they were flabbergasted at Hillary’s words and attitude that afternoon, but each came to believe that the incident was indicative of something more revealing about her character… ‘That was it for me in terms of Hillary Clinton,’ Bradley said many years later. ‘You don’t tell members of the Senate you are going to demonize them. It was obviously so basic to who she is. The arrogance. The assumption that people with questions are enemies. The disdain. The hypocrisy.’ Lawrence O’Donnell explained the depth of Moynihan’s disappointment with the woman who would eventually replace him in the Senate. The senator ‘didn’t hold grudges, didn’t personalize such matters,’ said O’Donnell. ‘But the “demonizing” colored his perception of Hillary, and how she operated, for the rest of his life.’”

wow (from shakeys link)

This is EXACTLY why my mom, a moderate Republican with a college degree, can't stand her.

No offense against your mom, I do get (finally) that a lot of women including (especially?) professional, successful women agree. I'm incredibly dismayed about it. What a country.

This is like a tertiary red herring - I don't believe at all that she's stayed with him for ambition - but someone pls to tell me who the last presidential candidate was whose spouse was known to have cheated on them.

The only women I know who support Clinton are over age 60 (e.g. my mother, and wives of senior colleagues).

my mom is a professional, college-educated woman in her early '60s, who grew up in illinois to boot. she's practically hillary's demographic twin. and she doesn't mind hillary. but she voted obama because she thinks he matches up better against mccain.

But maybe that stuff is for another thread. Do we have a feminism thread?

but someone pls to tell me who the last presidential candidate was whose spouse was known to have cheated on them

I just kinda assume they're all a bunch of philanderers. "power is the ultimate aphrodisiac" etc

oh SPOUSE, yeah I dunno

or, someone tell me the last Presidential candidate who was known to have cheated. OH RIGHT.

mccain

but someone pls to tell me who the last presidential candidate was whose spouse was known to have cheated on them

Eleanor Roosevelt.