a thread about the civil unrest in egypt (& elsewhere in 'the region' if necessary)

tbh i don't feel we know that much of what's going on, not enough to actually call for a no-fly zone on the internet (pretty sure i haven't mentioned invasion, josh). im talking abt principles, really. but what is odd to me is the very low temperature of obama's words, and that's what hitch is picking up on. the future is indeed pretty uncertain in libya, from what i can tell.

but if there's reason to fear the worst (as some of you seem to be: it's an inchoate revolution, things could get tribal...) then is it not the job of 'the international community'/the UN/the US to try to stack the deck in favour of the least worst option? that doesn't mean sending in the marines, but i think the hour calls for more than obama is giving.

the 'leaders' -- BIG fuck-off scare-quotes -- of the rising in benghazi seem to be, like, the chief of the local bar association etc. ie the classic revolutionary. i take that as a good sign.

But at this point in history why can't one of the many other countries in the world step up and introduce stuff in the UN and make this happen?

most countries are too poor and don't have a meaningful military, or don't care particularly / aren't world powers. russia and china -- you can do the punchline. the uk no longer has a navy and is overcommitted already. you're kind of left with france or germany as the only contenders.

have to say it's funny having american bros tell an englishman that revolutionaries shd be left to it...

acc. to FB friend in egypt, masked armed forces are dispering ppl in tahrir right now? (it's past curfew)

not good

A Nation magazine columnist says why he opposes a no-fly zone:

It’s dangerous: Like the no-fly zone in Iraq from 1991–2003, the enforcement of such a policy would be run by the United States and its junior partner, the British. It means war: a no-fly zone is worthless unless the United States is prepared to back it up with overwhelming military force.

It’s not needed: it isn’t clear that Libyan pilots are willing to bomb their own citizens. And, the revolution playing out in Libya isn’t likely to go on for months, or even weeks. Either Muammar Qaddafi surrenders or falls, or (far less likely) he somehow recovers to take control

http://www.thenation.com/blog/158818/against-no-fly-zone-libya

foreignpolicy.com on the pros and cons of a no-fly zone

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/02/24/act_now

Anderson Cooper quoted someone as saying Gadhafi's troops in Tripoli were using machine guns on little kids carrying rocks.

Just make sure they weren't raping any Belgian nuns in the lulls between bursts of fire.

OK. Atrocities are always possible, I'd even say close to a certainty, in these situations. So are rumors. It's just good to remember how little we actually know until it is verified from multiple sources.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/27/world/africa/27libya.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

An increasingly gruesome picture began to emerge Saturday of the violent tactics used by the government of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi to quell protesters in Tripoli, the Libyan capital, with several witnesses confirming that forces loyal to the government had been shooting people from ambulances and using antiaircraft guns against crowds.
...
A precise death toll might be impossible. Omar said that friends who were doctors at a hospital in Tripoli saw bodies being removed from the morgue to conceal the death toll. Local residents told him that the bodies were being taken to beaches and burned.

That sounds about right.

This is all horrible, but confirmation that Qaddafi is an absolute monster almost seems tragically redundant. Sure, he oppresses his people, yes, he's a megalomaniac dictator, granted he occasionally funds terrorist groups to blow up planes and bars and, oh yeah, he voluntarily stopped a secret WMD program, thus revealing that he had a secret WMD program. But shoot on his own people? In the most evil and ruthless manner possible? Who would have thought it?

BreakingNews Breaking News
British military planes enter Libyan air space in daring rescue of more than 150 civilians from desert locations http://on.msnbc.com/dLiQU1
1 minute ago

dayum

'enter Libyan airspace without permission, even with humanitarian supplies, and you've just invaded Libya.' - a blogger

ruh-roh

http://grab.by/9aVR

in toronto^ btw

http://grab.by/9aW6

im interested in this shoe symbolism - ive heard its a sign of disrespect but it seems to have taken on a more specific meaning in the context of these protests - or maybe its been like that all along idk

In Africa and the middle east, it's considered rude/disrespectful to show the soles of the feet - this is a notion that predates Islam. So extrapolating from there, lobbing shoes at someone with a shit-ton of power is how to show you really have nothing left for that person and you certainly don't respect them.

http://s.buzzfeed.com/raw/bush-shoe-throw/bush-shoe-throw-03.gif

i get that suzy, but 'leave by the shoe' on that sign implies that its taken on if not a new meaning a somewhat more iconic or embodied one or something

shoe power, if you will

they're going to kick him out, with their shoes

theyre going to shoe him whos boss

being a terrible dictator is a bootable offense

lol...guys

my favorite part of the gif is the guy taking off his other shoe to throw it

one nice thing i'll say about W is his reactions were pretty impressive there

my least favorite part is how easily and competently bush doges it

probably was just having a good day tho, once you consider katrina xp

you would think his second dodge would be lower than his first dodge, but I guess he already figured out it was just a shoe

that first throw was really on target - woulda caught him right in the schnozz if he wasnt looking

i'm assuming that poor guy was brought out to the back and shot on the spot, unfortuantely

naw hes still around, heard they just temp locked him up again preemptively via worrying postests would get out of hand in iraq, guess hes some sort of agitator

still alive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntadar_al-Zaidi

There were calls throughout the Middle East to place the shoes in an Iraqi museum,[4] but the shoes were later destroyed by American and Iraqi security forces.[5] Al-Zaidi's shoeing inspired many similar incidents of political protest around the world.[6][7]

naw hes still around, heard they just temp locked him up again preemptively via worrying postests would get out of hand in iraq, guess hes some sort of agitator

― ice cr?m, Saturday, February 26, 2011 4:24 PM (12 minutes ago)

so glad we brought western values to this country!

In Africa and the middle east, it's considered rude/disrespectful to show the soles of the feet - this is a notion that predates Islam

If you go into a mosque, you have to take your shoes off, but you can't have them soles-down on the floor. You have to put the two soles together and leave them like that.

USA USA!! xp

huh. usually i had someone put my shoes away for me.

xpost

If you go into a mosque, you have to take your shoes off, but you can't have them soles-down on the floor. You have to put the two soles together and leave them like that.

― Telephoneface (Adam Bruneau), Saturday, February 26, 2011 9:46 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark

maybe in some places but, really, no

i heard that to enter a mosque you had to kill one (1) christian child

it's 3, max

i heard that the christian children you kill to get into a mosque are more relevant than the christian children i know

i heard u need to bake the christian children into matzot to get in -- oh wait wrong religion my bad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qZ30e8q5_s&feature=player_embedded

Ratcheting up the pressure, President Barack Obama on Saturday said Moammar Gadhafi has lost his legitimacy to rule and urged the Libyan leader to leave power immediately.

It was the first time Obama has called for Gadhafi to step down, coming after days of bloodshed in Libya

Clearly you didn't watch the news conference with Qaddafi's son, who says the news of violence is all a misunderstood joke we will soon be laughing at.

activists just looking for love turns out http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/muslim-dating-site-madawi-seeds-libyan-revolution/story?id=12981938

aliases like "Sweet Butterfly," "Opener of the Mountain," "Girl of the Desert" and "Melody of Torture."

not enough for a poll, I guess.

And in recognition of the insurrection’s growing power, Italy’s foreign minister suspended a nonaggression treaty with Libya on the grounds that the Libyan state “no longer exists.” Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said the United States was reaching out to the rebels to “offer any kind of assistance.”

damn dude