TS: "Silence of the Lambs" vs. "Seven"

'silence..' is the better *movie* (i mean it's demme what else is it going to be?) but 'seven' scared the sh-t out of me. by a lo-o-o-ng way the most actually frightening/unsettling mainstream release of that decade.

the bit in the desert just before the box arrives (in those pre-internet pre-spoiler days) and they're all just...standing there wondering what will happen next, *phewsh* i thought i might have cardiac arrest live in odeon screen one.

Also, Savage Republic's "Real Men" appears in one basement scene.

(xp: yeah, i thought it was the autopsy scene but it was a while since i saw it)

silence of the lambs was pretty boring too.

the scene where they are interviewing the fellow who had the "knife dildo" strapped to him - he's wrapped in a blanket and totally hysterical. that is some of the bast bit-part acting i think i've seen.

and the creepiest thing i've ever seen in a movie is when they find the "sloth" victim. he looks 100% dead, almost fake, and all of the sudden wakes up, coughing and thrashing about. that scarred the living fuck out of me. i watched it just a few days ago and considered starting a thread about how that scene totally makes my skin crawl like nothing else i've ever seen in a film.

I don't think that's true, though. The backlash was so immediate that Demme made Philadelphia almost as an apology/mea culpa. I realize that a film about AIDS doesn't really address what you're talking about, but I mention this as evidence that there was a backlash (and protests, if I remember correctly), and I think in general the film is viewed far less positively today than when it swept all those awards.

i think it is a great movie
AND its portrayal of the killer is transphobic

not bringing it up in this conversation is not the same thing as us somehow saying that the transphobia is not there

I don't think that's true, though. The backlash was so immediate that Demme made Philadelphia almost as an apology/mea culpa. I realize that a film about AIDS doesn't really address what you're talking about, but I mention this as evidence that there was a backlash (and protests, if I remember correctly), and I think in general the film is viewed far less positively today than when it swept all those awards.

― clemenza

if you're looking at it from a historical perspective, there _was_ a debate going on at the time, there _was_ some criticism, but it centered on the question of whether buffalo bill was a gay man. hence why philadelphia was seen as an "apology" - the entirety of the discourse was centered around cis gay men. cis gay men were the only people whose voice was heard. the whole thing around philadelphia is fascinating, the whole "prestige movie" aspect... i watched the film _the celluloid closet_ a few years back and the whole last quarter is an extended self-congratulatory exercise in which everyone talks about how _philadelphia_ is the ultimate vindication of queer filmmaking, and, uh, i certainly recall it being _marketed_ that way at the time.

the idea that gay men are fine as long as they act exactly like straight men at all times is perhaps not an idea that has held up terribly well over the years. are there people who are interested in watching _philadelphia_ today? if so, _why_?

i'm not looking at it from a historical perspective... i'm looking at it from a contemporary lens, where lots of people in the younger generation _are_ big into _silence of the lambs_. as far as i can tell it's the lecter/starling dynamic, which is, i mean, it's an extremely powerful screen pairing. it's not a film that's going to go away just because of the transphobia.

my experience is that i hear people talking frequently about how great a film silence of the lambs is and when i bring up buffalo bill the people in question have genuinely forgotten that buffalo bill is in the film. again, understandably, because the character, while representing a long-standing transphobic stereotype, just isn't particularly interesting.

i mean, look, if _breakfast at tiffany's_ is considered a timeless classic, i don't really feel like i'm going to get anywhere by complaining about _silence of the lambs_.

I found this piece, which addresses some of the history.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/04/director-jonathan-demme-faced-down-silence-of-the-lambs-gay-backlash.html

I'm really just disagreeing with one narrow point in your post, that nobody even _remembers_ the horrible transphobic stereotype. The reading of that may have been different in 1991, just because it was a different world, but the pushback against the film was always there from the start, and today it's sometimes the only thing people remember about the film. Which is in part why some of us, I think, are saying there's also a great movie there.

According to that piece--or at least according to Demme--I'm wrong that there was a link to Philadelphia, which he says was conceived beforehand.

Among the reasons I like reading Robin Wood as a critic is his talent for interrogating films he loves for their failures in portraying complex masculinity.

I remember anti-"Silence" protests, or for sure articles about same. I also remember anti-"Basic Instinct" protests.

Y'all can keep Breakfast at Tiffany's.

I've hated both these movies for years even if I can now begrudgingly admit they are well made hollywood flicks.

Silence: I've never been a fan of the supervillain serial killer trope. It just seems so at odds with their reality. That scene where Hopkins escapes the cell leaving the guard in a crucifixion homage - c'mon. Also one of those movies where everyone is super smart until the plot calls for them to be dumb. I hate that. Buffalo Bill having a gun and night vision goggles and being behind Starling in a pitch black basement, but no, Sheriff Starling is too quick a shot for ol' Bill. Foster is great and Hopkins is memorable, the movie is creepy, so I get why people like it.

Seven: Like I said, I've never been a fan of the supervillain serial killer trope. I started hating Spacey when American Beauty came out and didn't see Seven until after that. Just more one-note Spacey mugging. I will admit the ending is hilarious, made moreso because it reminds of this great parody:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVMLivHTXac

I think Zodiac and Mindhunter (admittedly different shows with different interests) do the serial killer thing much better without the superhero stuff. Silence and Seven might as well be Marvel movies.

usually when people say they like "breakfast at tiffany's" they just mean they like Audrey Hepburn in a black dress, and maybe the cat. At least, that's what I mean when I say I like it.

Yeah idk that I buy that "nobody remembers the trans stereotype" in Silence of the Lambs.

Vox, on the 30th anniversary of the film in 2021

"A huge amount of discourse has occurred over the past three decades surrounding Silence of the Lambs’ transphobia."

"The film profoundly — if unintentionally — impacted transgender people for the worse."

Around the same time, critic Emily St. James wrote (also in Vox):

"I am a trans woman, and I love The Silence of the Lambs.

I know, I know, I know. I shouldn’t. The serial killer that FBI trainee Clarice Starling attempts to capture kills women so he can cut off their skin and wear it as a suit. He puts on dresses and makeup and dances around to “Goodbye Horses.” Despite the film’s attempts to insist that Buffalo Bill isn’t trans, all anyone remembers of the character is the scenes in which he seems to be making a cruel mockery of trans womanhood (to say nothing of queerness more generally)."

Yvonne Tasker, in her BFI mongraph abt Silence of the Lambs, floats the idea that both the serial killer and Starling are "cross-dressers", as she puts it (the book was first published in 2002):

Gumb's perverse attempt to construct a female body can be compared with Starling's cross-class aspirations and the investment she makes in masculinity (to the extent that agency and authority are coded masculine). Thus the two are an apt pairing: Buffalo Bill is a man with an investment in femininity (something of a perverse ambition, the film seems to suggest), while Starling is a woman whose actions are framed by masculine terms.

The repetition of 'perverse' seems clumsy, but I think this is a largely accurate reading, if only because the film sits well within the horror genre, where doubles, others, mirrors, are a constant.

Look. I don't want the discussion of Silence of the Lambs to be _about_ transphobia. It is a legitimately great movie, it is clearly going to be remembered as an all-time classic, and there's lots to discuss about it _besides_ the transphobia.

The transphobia needs to be part of the discussion, though. I think it's easy to underestimate just how big a role _The Silence of the Lambs_ and _The Crying Game_ played in perpetuating transphobic stereotypes. In neither case was this _intentional_. Demme wasn't setting out to make a transphobic film. Demme's film, in fact, like Harris' book, reflects the cultural norms of the time regarding transgender people - which is why it _is_ so important to talk about the transphobia, because it's _not uniquely transphobic_, it reflects a point of view that was _normative_ at the time of its release _regarding trans people_.

I found this piece, which addresses some of the history.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/04/director-jonathan-demme-faced-down-silence-of-the-lambs-gay-backlash.html

I'm really just disagreeing with one narrow point in your post, that nobody even _remembers_ the horrible transphobic stereotype. The reading of that may have been different in 1991, just because it was a different world, but the pushback against the film was always there from the start, and today it's sometimes the only thing people remember about the film. Which is in part why some of us, I think, are saying there's also a great movie there.

According to that piece--or at least according to Demme--I'm wrong that there was a link to Philadelphia, which he says was conceived beforehand.

― clemenza

It's an interesting article. Interesting to see the way the issues were represented in 2017, which in trans terms was a million years ago.

I do have some... disagreements with the way Bloomer represents the film, but I'm not really inclined to get into them unless people take it as being, like, a definitive statement. Which it's not. I don't want to spend a lot of time arguing about one narrow point when there's a broader picture to be considered.

Anyway, yes, it's not true that "nobody remembers the transphobia". _I_ certainly remember the transphobia. Because while Silence of the Lambs' take on transness _isn't_ unique, the important thing about the film to me is that it gave _widespread voice_ to that transphobic narrative. It was probably the most important film of that entire generation in terms of how it portrayed trans people. And, well, that just happened to be my generation. I was 14 when the film came out. I don't _blame_ Demme or the film, I don't think anything they were doing was _malicious_, but in terms of its impact? Yeah, I do think that the film had a profound, even life-changing, negative impact on my life.

Yes, _Silence_ is a great film, a genuinely great film. I'm working pretty hard here to not take offense at people in this thread trying to explain that to me, a trans woman, because I know nobody _means_ to be offensive here. It's a great film, but it's not a film I personally enjoy, pretty much solely because of the transphobia. That's not to say that other people can't or shouldn't enjoy the film. I'm just talking about my personal experience with the film. I'm not going to judge anybody, including other trans people, for liking the film. When it comes to the film, I do think Emily Van Der Werff has a really good take on the way we should treat it. I'm inclined to agree with her suggestions.

What I would say rather than that "nobody remembers the transphobia" is that the impact of the film's transphobia is underrated by cis people, and the transphobia itself is seldom discussed by cis people. I mean, I'm not saying this to pick on anybody in particular, but I'm not sure that the question of whether Kevin Spacey is in the film is more important than its broad-reaching societal impact in promoting transphobia. I'm not even sure... Alfred, when you talked about the "sexual politics", was that with reference to its promotion of transphobia, or is it more of a broader statement?

I don't like talking about the transphobia. I don't want to bring it up. A lot of cis people get defensive, they think I'm being a moralist wagging my finger at them, and I have no desire to put myself in that position.

People keep _talking_ about the film, though, and if people are going to keep _talking_ about it, again, I think the transphobia needs to be part of what they talk about. I also, I don't want to always be the one who's fucking talking about it. I'm tired of talking about it. There's a whole lot of shit that's more important to me.

Yvonne Tasker, in her BFI mongraph abt Silence of the Lambs, floats the idea that both the serial killer and Starling are "cross-dressers", as she puts it (the book was first published in 2002):

Gumb's perverse attempt to construct a female body can be compared with Starling's cross-class aspirations and the investment she makes in masculinity (to the extent that agency and authority are coded masculine). Thus the two are an apt pairing: Buffalo Bill is a man with an investment in femininity (something of a perverse ambition, the film seems to suggest), while Starling is a woman whose actions are framed by masculine terms.

The repetition of 'perverse' seems clumsy, but I think this is a largely accurate reading, if only because the film sits well within the horror genre, where doubles, others, mirrors, are a constant.

― Ward Fowler

I could talk very in-depth about this topic, the way Tasker has framed it, the way you have framed it, and the problems and challenges it faces for trans people. I don't really want to right now.

... Alfred, when you talked about the "sexual politics", was that with reference to its promotion of transphobia, or is it more of a broader statement?

I wasn't out when Demme released the film (I was a high school junior), but, as a guy who already suspected he was at least not straight, I was aware of my conflict watching those Buffalo Bill scenes: the dancing, the goddamn poodle. I suppose I meant the phrase as a broader statement. I didn't intend, though, to handwave those cavils, i.e. "other than the sexual politics."

the goddamn poodle

She was a Bichon Frise.

sounds like it's served with bib lettuce and a light vinaigrette.

it is, and it's delicious!

something something fava beans

I wasn't out when Demme released the film (I was a high school junior), but, as a guy who already suspected he was at least not straight, I was aware of my conflict watching those Buffalo Bill scenes: the dancing, the goddamn poodle. I suppose I meant the phrase as a broader statement. I didn't intend, though, to handwave those cavils, i.e. "other than the sexual politics."

― hat trick of trashiness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

i don't see you as handwaving! i was just wondering how much the particular effect of that film on trans people is known or understood, haha

oh, and if anybody happens to be interested in a deeper dive into _The Silence of the Lambs_ as it relates to transphobia, i think Lindsay Ellis' video on the pop culture roots of transphobia is excellent and breaks it down probably better than i could:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHTMidTLO60

i don't see you as handwaving! i was just wondering how much the particular effect of that film on trans people is known or understood, haha

― Kate (rushomancy),

Thanks :)

Every time I rewatch "Silence of the Lambs" I notice something different, in this case how deftly Demme explores themes of perception: how we see ourselves and how we see others. There is most obviously Buffalo Bill, who sees himself as one thing becoming another thing, while we are set up to see him as another, a monster; he even gives Lector pause (though in many ways his character is not explored to any degree of real satisfaction). And then there is Lector, another monster, the all-seeing oracle/plot accelerant, who is unwilling or unable to look inward but feeds on his own perceptive abilities. But of course first and foremost is Starling, a literal investigator - a profession perceiver - in the midst of her own transformation, disguising/discarding (to the best of her abilities) her roots in an attempt to be seen/taken more seriously (though of course Lector, er, sees right through that). And then there is the way *we* see how others see her, often by way of sexist leers or remarks that she generally quietly accepts as the cost of doing business; she can make herself look and sound one way, but that does not stop the way others still choose to see her.

But then there is the way Demme himself tells the story, through unflinching close-ups and characters looking straight at the camera, in a sense seeing *us* just as we are seeing them, making us feel the same gaze the characters are feeling on a daily basis, and processing in very different ways. Or the multiple instances where he visually highlights how small Starling is next to all these overwhelmingly male cops and Feds, not vulnerable, per se, just literally overlooked. Scott Glenn, *maybe* he sees her potential, but he also just sees her gender, which he exploits for his own purposes; he sees one thing at the start, but by the end he recognizes another. Starling has become something new - a hero, an FBI agent, a survivor, and even Lector acknowledges her accomplishments, the same way the haunted Starling herself knows she's gone through something bigger - a sort of anti-trauma - than she ever could have chosen for herself.

In this case the Oscars really got it right, because it's just an all around symbiosis of direction, writing and acting, each element enhancing the thematic aims of the other.

I saw it two weeks ago. His attention to rural backwoods life struck me: he follows Clarice as she meticulously -- as if she doesn't wanna disturb the dead girl's things -- looks over clothes, opens the music box, etc.

It's equally spooky and beautiful. I've always been struck by the conversation she has with the small town Ohio girl. The girl is clearly trapped in this dead-end town, and she sees Starling as a role model, someone that has escaped. But Starling knows (and Foster conveys) that running away is not the same thing as escape.

I'm just finishing Mindhunter, the book that the series is based on. Silence gets mentioned a few times--Thomas Harris consulted with the behavioural science unit when writing his book.

Harris was a regular at my local indie bookstore's Miami Beach location where I worked in the early '00s. He'd cut quite a figure in his Panama hat -- wonder if he based Lector's Kokomo attire on himself.

If "Seven" had a prequel (which would be, of course, called "Six"), it would be hilarious to host a film festival featuring both of 'em back-to-back