ongoing racist bullshit in arizona thread

k3v - it is pretty obvious by your "distort then mock" tactic that any kind of discussion is pointless so I am gonna check out.

ha don't want to go on record otming it but i was trying to put what rockapads said into words just now. killing killers of 9 yos just seems right to me -- then there's redemption, injustice system, wrongful convictions et al that are real real things and they are there but i can't lie and say they inform my reaction to things like this in a meaningful way.
having not 'thought it through' in the way i think one is supposed to i at least do everyone the courtesy of not being involved with the legal system.
sry kev
i believe in the civilian right to bear arms also, shakier ground calling that a 'right-wing' position but i'll take that bullet. ahem

k3vin why are you being a dick - I know what it's like to want to kill somebody because I'm angry at them - so does everybody except Jesus & Gandhi - I know what it's like to feel like "man this person who did a terrible thing deserves to die for it, that's how terrible it was" - every fuckin human on the planet knows that feeling - I'm still against the death penalty - everybody's felt "fuckin', this asshole should die for what he did" - if you can't cop to that - well, you should be able to because it's really not complicated - basic human feeling imo

tbf to kevin some of us on the pro side are yr actual typically contemptible reactionary kneejerkin neanderthals, just sayin

then there's redemption

You can't possibly be redeemed for killing someone. I don't care what Jesus says.

how bout gandhi?

If neither of those bucks' word is good enough for ya, i doubt there's an ilxor is gonna manage to turn you on this un

yeah sorry i'm not being a dick though - i'm aware that people have irrational emotional responses to things - we all do, it's called being human. you should be able to reject those feelings though the morning after - anyone who thinks another human being who poses no imminent threat to anyone should be "put down for the sake of humanity" - by virtue of being incarcerated - is just, i dunno. killing is wrong

bnw i'd be open to discussing in an adult manner where you think i distorted what you said

k3v otm

and aero look i know you agree with me and everything and you're just practicing your super-empathic M.O. which generally is my worldview as well, so spare me dogg, i get you

"by virtue of being incarcerated" is supposed to clarify the "imminent threat" part in my first post, if that wasn't clear

but I mean from a practical standpoint "I can totally dig where you're coming from" will advance the anti-death penalty position better than "no fuck you death penalty is bullshit" - you're dealing with a pretty basic human response here; a default human response. calling people "right wing" because they say "I don't know, I can sympathize with the pro-death-penalty position here" = being a dick imo, totally 1) unproductive 2) unnecessary 3) bein' a dick

and I mean I gotta play the dick card here, I'm kind of a dick, if I notice you're being a dick you can take that as expert testimony

I cant help feeling that a testicle joke went begging there somewhere at the end.

sorry Trayce, yr right yr right, let me revise that last sentence

and I mean I gotta play the dick card here, I'm kind of a dick, if I notice you're being a dick you can take that as expert testimony, also, my balls

hahahahaha

does saying "props to that jury" = "i don't know, i can sympathize with the pro-death penalty position here" ??

http://www.richardcardcamera.com/

fully get and share (if not necessarily approve of) the human impulse for vengeance/"justice" but still don't think this is a business the state should be in.

this woman is full-on like Ethics Textbook 101 "but what if someone did something REALLY BAD" thought problem level though.

i've seen worse - the petit family murder was a huge deal around here and stirred up a lot of debate about the death penalty - our former governor cited the case when vetoing a legislatively-approved death penalty ban. to me the nature of the crime doesn't matter a bit in whether i think it's ok to kill another person, for others i guess it does

p sure the death penalty krew dont think 'it's ok to kill someone' either, hence cranking up the stakes involved if you do it and get caught.

I'm sorry my earlier posts weren't that coherent, but Kevin really pisses me off by framing the death penalty as a "right-wing" issue. More than 50% of Democrats support the death penalty. It's just not a right-wing issue. It's an everybody issue. I think that the death penalty is in severe need of reform, but that shouldn't lead a person to come out completely against it.

But anyway, this is not a death penalty thread, so we should let it get back on topic. If anybody wants me, I'll be over on ILM trying to convince people than Guns'n'Roses has greater artistic merit than Iron Maiden.

Just rest easy that, given the state of racial politics and the justice system in Arizona, she's likely to be locked up with an awful lot of Hispanics.

to me the nature of the crime doesn't matter a bit in whether i think it's ok to kill another person, for others i guess it does

^^^ this is being a dick. People are talking about understanding the sentiments of others, not "thinking it's ok to kill another person." you understand that, but have chosen to act like a dick instead. as a guy who simply by virtue of advancing age has probably opposed the death penalty 20 years longer than you've been alive, I resent you making people who oppose the death penalty look like dicks.

also, my balls

I was just going to quote that and post themoreyouknow.jpg but your approach is probably more productive.

and by "that" I mean "also, my balls"

I'll be over on ILM trying to convince people than Guns'n'Roses has greater artistic merit than Iron Maiden.
― kkvgz, Wednesday, February 23, 2011 10:53 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark suggest death penalty permalink

Also, ceding ground to people who are right-authoritarian on matters of 'some crimes are too horrible to allow the perp to live' is the lazy person's way to cheapen life generally, and misses out valuable opportunities to point out r-a inconsistencies on sanctity of all human life re. family planning issues.

this makes me wonder, what is the industrious person's way to cheapen life

I assume it involves Powerpoint

Powerpoint, guns, ownership of health insurance company...

im anti-death penalty but at the same time in a perfect world i dont really have any problem with the state executing Proven Monsters like timothy mcveigh (its a more humane fate than a lifetime in our barbaric prison system anyway) - its more just that its impossible to have a system where innocent people don't also get merc'd, which seems unacceptable 2 me

^^^ this is pretty much how I feel

Your life is as valuable as how you choose to live it; you don't get to choose the circumstances of your life but you do get to choose how you react to them. You also have to live with the consequences of those actions.

I still wish we did not have the death penalty, but I am not particularly sorry or remorseful about this woman receiving it.

I understand wanting to kill people.

I understand why we have punishments for murder.

I know justice is imperfect and that, to attempt to perfect it and at the same time, treat human life and dignity with the respect they deserve, is very, very expensive - far more expensive than lifetime incarceration.

I am uncomfortable with encouraging victims to steep in their natural desire for revenge, to stay stuck and not transcend a moment of evil.

That said, what better revenge than to deny a murderer all the pomp of execution and let them rot in prison until they die?

The lady's a trainwreck of human being but I don't argue my position about the death penalty out of specifics but out of a bigger and hopefully more dispassionate picture.

Also, prison food.

I do think the most rational answer to "why should the taxpayers pay for [x]" is "because we live in an advanced society".

LWP is a better solution; I'm still not upset about this woman receiving the death penalty. It is possible to not be upset by something you don't support, particularly when you are looking at cherry-picked examples rather than overarching generalities.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over her. I may wake up momentarily terrified at the thought of the jury, though.

I do think the most rational answer to "why should the taxpayers pay for "x" is "because we live in an advanced society".

Really? Death penalty really dates from pre-prison days when cutting your hand off or blinding you wasn't quite enough. Saying that spending shitloads of money in the present age to kill savage humans is 'advanced' is risible.

By all means, draw and quarter them, publicly eviscerate them, whatever, but let us not pretend it has anything to do with advanced civilization, justice or the encouragement of peaceful society.

Er, I think the "x" in that quote is supposed to represent "housing and feeding a murderer for the rest of his or her life."

...

that was an anti- argument

xp: exactly

I'm sorry my earlier posts weren't that coherent, but Kevin really pisses me off by framing the death penalty as a "right-wing" issue. More than 50% of Democrats support the death penalty. It's just not a right-wing issue. It's an everybody issue. I think that the death penalty is in severe need of reform, but that shouldn't lead a person to come out completely against it.

if the death penalty isn't a right-wing issue idk what is. that a majority of democrats support it doesn't reveal anything except 'there aren't very many left-wing democrats in america', which, I mean, duh.

It would be kind of amusing from afar to turn America into a "violence as a first resort" society where all crimes were punishable by death, just to see how long that would last.

hey you have to live (ie die) with the consequences of your actions

iatee otm

i think its clear that determining who is and isnt right wing is the most important thing we can discuss

Er, I think the "x" in that quote is supposed to represent "housing and feeding a murderer for the rest of his or her life."

Clearly I'm an idiot. I hope that's not punsihable by death in iatee's dystopia but maybe it should be.

I have no compunction, however, about arguing against the death penalty (not to mention extremely punitive and very often racist) incarceration policies on the basis of expense. It's fun to watch right-wingers writhe trying to justify inefficient and expensive, big-government policies like the war on drugs while supporting those pesky unions (prison guards) that so distort the body politic.

k3v otm

^^^cosign

death penalty is always wrong and redemption is a real thing

oh good, we are at the point of the argument where we post meaningless compound sentences! my turn:

country music is always terrible and lynching is a real thing

lol fair enough

except that country music is awesome

(sez the guy currently listening to Merle Haggard)

are you saying lynching isn't real??