The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

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Plus, good luck getting through the hot-button issues (gun control, or, say, abortion) within our lifetime.

Within our lifetime, the issue will surely alter significantly to heat-ray control.

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:19 (nineteen years ago)

Also: I'd be curious to knwo the gun fatality statistics for those who've grown up around them. From an early age I knew guns were loud and hot to the touch, therefore STAY AWAY.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:19 (nineteen years ago)

I care about the Constitution, but that doesn't mean it's a perfect document.

Read upthread where I compared the 2nd Amendment to Deuteronomy about a bazillion posts before Will did. Caring about the Constitution does not imply that the carer thinks it is a perfect document.

What's wrong with making a constitution 2.0 (other than the fact that nobody would ever agree on one) that's set in present time? or wait, if the agreement thing the reason? fetishize a certain document so that nobody can argue its validity, and just try your damnedest to follow everything on it? i really don't understand, but my country didn't have a charter til 1982. and i think they still change it sometimes. xp

It is virtually impossible to change the Constitution in this day and age, given the overwhelming majority who need to ratify any edits made to it. Also, if you read upthread, you will see that I'm not fetishizing it. My point is that not caring about the document that defines the way law works in your country is really fucking stupid regardless of how you feel about the laws described within that document.

xpost: Ally I'm trying to ignore that.

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:19 (nineteen years ago)

I think you're probably right, Matt. Crucial to the concealed carry argument (which I've heard LOTS of times (hi dad!)), is the fact that a CCW owner will actually know how to use their weapon--correct grip, stance, will have practiced with it at the range, etc., while your average thug with a .38 is just sort of hoping that having the gun will be enough to scare someone.

Like I said on the VT thread (which came off all wrong, sorry): shooting handguns is hard!

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:20 (nineteen years ago)

word up schef, but if COULD also mean it was purched illegally. Who knows? It is kind of a moot point now, but yeah. Why would he buy it legally, then file it down?

xp Sorry Dan if it seemed like I was implying YOU were fetishizing it, I most certainly do not think you are. But to say nobody does would be wrong, no?

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:21 (nineteen years ago)

Many people back home ask me about America and guns. Some of them even think that there is a gun in every American household and that there are multiple gun murders every day in every American city. There are many things I do not understand about the gun debate, but I have twice been in a situation where an older male relative (one my cousin, one my father in law) has pulled a revolver from his wife's underwear drawer in order to show me it and how freedom works blahblahblah. On neither occasion did I request or want to see a gun. Nonethless, I think this says something about US gun culture, I'm just trying to figure out exactly what it is.

― admrl, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:21 (nineteen years ago)

and, btw, simply having a gun really is enough to scare someone, and it ought to be. my friend had a gun shoved in his face while riding his bike (ie - moving) and it was seriously disturbing, especially since there was (what looked to me) a 16 yr old on the other end of it.

bet you he didn't get that at the gun shop, though.

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:22 (nineteen years ago)

some people be needing a civics class, among other things? seriously, constitution 2.0? nigh impossible simply in practical terms, leaving aside John Justen's point about how scary such a document would likely be.

― horseshoe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:22 (nineteen years ago)

Sorry Dan if it seemed like I was implying YOU were fetishizing it, I most certainly do not think you are. But to say nobody does would be wrong, no?

Considering that the person on this thread who is fetishizing the Constitution is the one I described as having an "I CUM ON GUNS" stance... I'd say no one ever said no one fetishized the Constitution.

(xpost: I give leeway on the Constitution 2.0 thing because the person suggesting it isn't an American and mostly likely doesn't know how impossible it would be to generate a document like that without another revolution.)

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:24 (nineteen years ago)

my guess is that if the serial number were filed down, he probably got it illegally? like, if he's going to on a murderous rampage, why would he care about covering his tracks back to where he go the gun?

serial numbers are filed in order to allow guns to traffic; the end user probably doesn't give a shit.

brtrps constitution 2.0 is the worst idea on the planet. hi dere marriage amendment!

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:24 (nineteen years ago)

What level of generalization, Alfred? "I don't know anyone who has a gun" is a statement of fact.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:25 (nineteen years ago)

however: it IS supposed to be a living document, and we would do well to remember that.

xp "why would I etc." :D

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:25 (nineteen years ago)

i still think just because someone is trained enough to have a concealed weapon license does not mean they will do any less (or any more) damage because of it.

i think it is just as likely they will cause more damage (firefight breaking out).

education might go some way, but not really.

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:26 (nineteen years ago)

Marriage amendment, abortion amendment, media violence amendment, welfare amendment... what other batshit fringe positions can we bake into this hypothetical clusterfuck?

(xpost: I hope it's obvious that I agree that the Constitution should be a living document, RW!)

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:27 (nineteen years ago)

however: it IS supposed to be a living document, and we would do well to remember that.

Yeah, all I was saying was that I took "who the fuck cares about the Constitution" not to be a call for anarchy but a challenge against those who cling to the 2nd Amendment without considering whether it's still practical and appropriate, as if its very presence in the Constitution legitimates it on anything other than a legal ground.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:29 (nineteen years ago)

(fwiw, it should be obvious to everyone by now that i'm getting my news in fits and starts, and mostly from ilx. irresponsible, etc. so, yeah, i guess the guns WERE purchased legally and dude filed them down afterwards. )

xps (i know, dan! and jaymc: thing is, i can't help but think that rectifying the second amendment, beyond being impossible, would also result in a tit for tat sorta deal where all kinds of other crazy shit gets thrown in there too)

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:31 (nineteen years ago)

My dad, a hunter, likes them for their own sake, like some people collect stamps and others buy music. He owns a concealed-weaposn permit.

Hahaha just like the many philatelists and rock geeks who walk around with stamps and CDs tucked in their underwear? Not really picking your dad or anything, and I know those two sentences are separate statements, but let's not try to fudge an antique-dealer's appreciation of gun-as-object with holding permits to pack heat!

― nabisco, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:31 (nineteen years ago)

Jaymc 8080808080. That's exactly what I was saying. I'm just a terrible communicator. Fuck an anarchy. The only good thing about anarchy was that hilarious cookbook I downloaded in 1996 and tried to hide on my parent's IBM for so long. xxp

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:32 (nineteen years ago)

oh hey i still have that on my computer!

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:34 (nineteen years ago)

I wish I did, hahaha. Tennis balls full of matchheads.

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:35 (nineteen years ago)

YSI?

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:35 (nineteen years ago)

wait, no, don't have it anymore. i do have the MIT lockpicking book, though

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:37 (nineteen years ago)

dude, the tennis ball full of matchheads was seriously tedious.

a light bulb went on in my head about the plot for Wimbledon II just now.

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:38 (nineteen years ago)

YOU ARE A BIG FUCKING TEASE, MR SO-CALLED "RIVER WOLF"

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:40 (nineteen years ago)

Hahaha just like the many philatelists and rock geeks who walk around with stamps and CDs tucked in their underwear? Not really picking your dad or anything, and I know those two sentences are separate statements, but let's not try to fudge an antique-dealer's appreciation of gun-as-object with holding permits to pack heat!

you know, there ARE places where you cannot actually own a gun, even as-object, without owning such permits. i mean, i know it's kind of beneath a few of you to actually learn about this shit before you open your mouths but it's not THAT hard. i don't personally own a gun and wouldn't want to after my own charming experience of being kidnapped and held for an interminable amount of time at gunpoint and then being shot at--have some of you even SEEN a gun in person, btw?--but it's not that hard for me to learn this stuff, and not make a horse's ass out of myself when trying to argue gun control ideas with my extremely libertarian father, so i'd like for the rest of you to do so as well, in the future.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:40 (nineteen years ago)

Aw, I was enjoying the waves of unwarranted smugness coming in a direction other than mine!

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:42 (nineteen years ago)

Hahaha just like the many philatelists and rock geeks who walk around with stamps and CDs tucked in their underwear?

I didn't think I would actually have to spell this out, but, you know, my dad likes guns because he finds them beautiful pieces of machinery, not cuz he can kill someone with'em.

What level of generalization, Alfred? "I don't know anyone who has a gun" is a statement of fact.

Thte person you described is a grotesque stereotype. It's like saying, "The only homo I know wears pink tanktops, marches in gay-pride parades, lisps, and loves ABBA" (which, actually, describes lots of Miami homos, except the marching part; it's too hot).

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:44 (nineteen years ago)

The seeing a gun statement is kinda ridiculous. Sure, tell people to know what they're talking about. But this whole "have you SEEN a gun" thing is just silly. Like seeing it makes a difference.

And yes, I've "seen" lots of guns. My dad was military and my friend's mom had a shotgun to scare off bears because she used to live in BC (which I always thought was hilarious)

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:45 (nineteen years ago)

If the Constitution were a living document, Charlton Heston have shot the fuck out of it years ago.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:46 (nineteen years ago)

*would have

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:46 (nineteen years ago)

one of the teachers in my high school often brought a gun to school as a visual aide for his chapel sermons.

it seems kind of fucked up now, but at the time, i didn't think anything of it.

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:47 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.securitech.com/D02-mp-police-lock-4800-series.html

i find these to be beautiful pieces of machinery ^^^

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:50 (nineteen years ago)

It's being reported that he bought the guns legally.

― Ben Boyerrr, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:50 (nineteen years ago)

What housewives are actually packing heat? Maybe I don't hang out with enough housewives.

my sister-in-law, for one. she's sweet and funny and plays guitar and sings emmylou harris songs. and keeps a handgun in a fake book jacket in her truck. oh, and my mother-in-law. but she owns a skeet shooting range so it would be kind of hard for her to not own a gun.

i married into a very well-armed family.

― tipsy mothra, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:52 (nineteen years ago)

Also, my mom, who is adorable and is a music therapist in an old folks home. Not exactly the "crazed fire-fight" type.

― John Justen, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:54 (nineteen years ago)

The person you described is a grotesque stereotype.

He's also a real person. If he's a stereotype, then that's his doing: he rather revels in the whole redneck image. As such, he's the only person I've met who's preached about how awesome guns are, and it's become something of a family joke, especially after he built his own cannon.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:54 (nineteen years ago)

(xpost) skeet skeet skeet

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:54 (nineteen years ago)

in her truck? what about when the intruder smashes through her kitchen window at 2 in the morning?? i guess this is why people have multiple guns.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:54 (nineteen years ago)

It's like me with multiple sticks of deoderant. Because I always forget and need it wherever I am. And it's 24 hour protection.

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:56 (nineteen years ago)

I'm curious why JJ's mom and JFM's sister-in-law own guns.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:57 (nineteen years ago)

I need to post pictures of the one deer my dad blew away -- it was hanging from the olive tree in the backyard. I was in fourth grade; I cried a lot. My mom and grandmother tried to distract me at the mall.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:57 (nineteen years ago)

I wonder if gun owners are like me with my deoderant. I leave it around the house as visual clues so I put it on because I NEVER REMEMBER. And in case I forget I leave some in my work locker.

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:57 (nineteen years ago)

manalashi sounds like he rubs his guns all over his body.

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:58 (nineteen years ago)

I've hardly read much of this thread but felt compelled to add something...

I've handled lots of guns (primarily shotguns but also handguns, a Magnum .357, etc.), although I have never killed anything and don't ever want to.

That being said I completely support the wholesale banning of firearms from the hands of private citizens, and find the majority of arguments to the contrary to be highly specious (yr shotgun isn't gonna protect you from the gummint, yr more likely to kill yr family member than you are an attacker, fatal accidents with guns grossly outnumber incidents of guns being succesfully used for self defense ad infinitum).

The problem is all of the gun control options in America are bad ones. Nothing can be done to really get rid of the problem, because there are already so many guns in commercial circulation in the country. You can't just take them out of people's hands and melt them all down or something. If they were all outlawed the black market for firearms would have already have an ample supply of product and a devoted network to move through. Ostensibly the country's gun problem would become even worse than it is now. America manufactures the arms and floods the markets of the world with them - the genie is out of the bottle and there's no way to stuff it back in. At best all we can hope for is a modicum of regulation.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:00 (nineteen years ago)

hahah "24-hour protection" .. one in the glove compartment, you get to the office, walk inside, open bottom-left drawer, there's your office gun, you give a smile of satisfaction and begin your day

the last time i saw somebody shooting a gun was last christmas, to get mistletoe down out of a tree

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:01 (nineteen years ago)

(and yes I realize my position is a bit contradictory - basically I would like an America where firearms are completely illegal, but realize that this cannot be practically implemented)

x-post

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:01 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, gun control options are limited at this point. i think most of the annoying problems that come from gun control debate are the people so obsessed with their right to own guns that banning any kind is wrong. reason gets thrown out of the window for a stupid ideology.

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:02 (nineteen years ago)

I saw a policeman with a gun (outside the US Embassy, where else?) but that's the only time I've ever actually seen one in real life

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:05 (nineteen years ago)

That being said I completely support the wholesale banning of firearms from the hands of private citizens

*sigh*

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:06 (nineteen years ago)

... talking from the UK that is (xpost)

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:06 (nineteen years ago)

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