I HATE APPLE

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Tracer what you need is not a computer but a Johnny Mneumonic microchip installed in your own brain, I think!

I don't have a problem with this "path" nonsense you speak of; what I dislike is that on certain programs recently released by a certain computer manufacturer who should not be releasing photo and music applications as far as I can tell and should be focusing on making their hardware nice as it used to be instead, files that are not saved in the "correct" path are treated differently by certain programs than files that are saved in the "correct" path. IE the old style Windows DO IT OURRR VAY OR VEE VILL BLOW UP YOUR COMPUTERRR. Saving I kind of agree with you theoretically except, err, I think there's a lot of people who don't want their computer to automatically save and archive every single thing they do on it.

But anyway I basically agree with you.

Fonts w/Tinkertool A) restart your computer B) it doesn't work on all of the screen fonts, only certain ones and certain programs, it's being BLOCKED on some of them. Change all of the fonts in the font screen, restart, and then open system preferences and see the new fonts in their glorious capacity!

Allyzay Dallas Multi-Pass (allyzay), Thursday, 17 March 2005 15:54 (nineteen years ago) link

Ed, it's not just fonts. And changing the defaults CAN be a huge deal depending on what you do with it.

And it is a good point to be made that strangleholding the amount of customization one can do to a system that used to champion its complete customizability is kind of a backwards step, esp as other OS's have gone towards the other direction.

Allyzay Dallas Multi-Pass (allyzay), Thursday, 17 March 2005 15:57 (nineteen years ago) link

Spotlight search technology - oh wow the new Sherlock, exactly 10% more useful than the old sherlock. I have gmail = WHOCARES

Uh, come on ... now you're just being cranky.

Personally, I'd like to see some kind of stab at way of managing things and activating things that doesn't rely on this desktop/file folder model that we've been going with ever since the first Mac came out. Why should I ever have to know the "path" to where something's been saved? Why should I ever have to "save" anything at all? It's all so dorky, I feel like I spend half my time drilling through folders, it can take so long that I forget what I'm even doing half the time.

Like spotlight?

Dr. Eldon Tyrell (ex machina), Thursday, 17 March 2005 16:52 (nineteen years ago) link

I don't have to save files with Spotlight? I believe it if you say so, I have no idea what the hell Spotlight even is.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 17 March 2005 17:03 (nineteen years ago) link

No, Spotlight is going to be absolutely worthless to me. Sherlock is worthless to me and spotlight doesn't address any of the issues that made Sherlock worthless.

Tracer is completely on point here. Bullshit like Sherlock and Spotlight is NOT THE ANSWER and has never been. What's needed is a way for user to be able to ARRANGE THEIR FILES THE WAY THEY WANT and SURPRISE all of a sudden stupid fucking thumb stuck in the dyke revolutionary searching and indexing technology is TOTALLY UNNECESSARY.

the REASON people like covering their entire Windows desktop with files and shortcuts and never deleting them is because THAT'S HOW THEY FIND THINGS. it's a shit ton faster than searching the goddamn hard disk. you look at an icon and click it. twice. this is the way MY computer USED TO WORK.

TOMBOT, Thursday, 17 March 2005 17:21 (nineteen years ago) link

covering the entire desktop with files=GOOD WAY FOR ME TO STAB YOU IF I HAVE TO USE YOUR COMPUTER ARRRGH

Tracer you could take the files you need to use a lot and make aliases of them in the dock and use that but after a while that gets ugly and confusing too.

Allyzay Dallas Multi-Pass (allyzay), Thursday, 17 March 2005 17:31 (nineteen years ago) link

Oh and FWIW http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/spotlight.html

Allyzay Dallas Multi-Pass (allyzay), Thursday, 17 March 2005 17:32 (nineteen years ago) link

Tom, honestly, you could still make your computer work that way very easily, it'll just be the ugliest computer in the entire world but IIRC the way yr old iBook desktop looked you don't seem to have a problem with hideousness. Download a hackthird party helper application that will delete the dock completely and do it. You won't be able to make the fonts crazy and ENORMOUS though :(

My main problem here, which I will reiterate again because, you know, spotlight and dashboard (uh didn't Windows try to do this integrated embedded browser/"active desktop" thing too? Dashboard, I mean. Wasn't that, uh, a problem?) will not fix my problem with OSX: they've taken some integral functionality features, "petty" ones or not petty ones, and removed them to give the user less ability to customize their computer. SEE ALSO: MICROSOFT, A FEW YEARS AGO BEFORE DOJ STEPPED IN AND SUDDENLY THEY MADE THEMSELVES A BIT MORE MAC LIKE. I'm going to pick again on the simple cosmetic issues because it seems to be the only thing that I can get people to agree on, without a judgement call as to whether or not xyz would use this feature, has definitely changed from previous versions of the OS to now. Adding a feature like that--and the slew of far more useful customization features that came with it--was like an integral part of why the OS was so great. You could make it react exactly how you wanted it to without having to use command line not-exactly-hacks of the system or third-party programs that don't always work. This wasn't a feature that caused any drain of the system and it wasn't a bug that needed to be fixed due to instability or computer-destruction issues. It was a feature that a lot of people liked. So why get rid of it? Why is Steve Jobs being quoted as saying customization is dead and why are they forcing people to use exactly this theme?

I absolutely, without reservations, despise Helvetica and Lucida Grande. A lot of people don't. On my old Mac, I deleted those fonts. I can't do that now. That was my very first, quiet disappointment when I opened up my iBook. Going to system preferences and realizing this system preference no longer existed. Yeah, this is a minor issue but it goes along with about 20 bigger issues of things I used to do a lot on my old Macs to customize programs and the way it reacted to certain things that seem to require a rather obtuse level of hoop jumping to get to now.

So basically, what I am asking here is why? Why have these features, which were a really large bonus of previous systems and features that are slowly being added to other OSes, been removed from OSX? Mac was a pioneer in this department--why are they going backwards, why are they going cagey and proprietarial and territorial, and what does this say for future developments?

No one ever wants to answer this question for me at all, but I think it is a perfectly decent question to ask. These features were NOT system drains. They did NOT cause computer/OS instability. They were GOOD. Why do they no longer exist?

Allyzay Dallas Multi-Pass (allyzay), Thursday, 17 March 2005 17:46 (nineteen years ago) link

Basically--yeah there are plenty of people who wouldn't use the features, plenty of people who'd be like oh that's nice but not miss it if they couldn't do it, but there are also plenty of people who would utilize the features heavily. If I can't do that anymore, which was one of my favorite things about having the old Mac, deleting options out of programs I didn't want to load up, changing the look of everything significantly, playing with all sorts of things--why the hell should I shell out money for these products, keeping in mind that if I had purchased a Dell laptop (or whatever) and my video card blew the way the iBook did, I could've v. easily and v. cheaply fixed that myself instead of losing the computer for two weeks while Apple fixes it with the special Apple part.

If I could get a good reason as to why the system is becoming more dictatorial and less user-trusting, that might change my mind. As far as I can see though there isn't a good reason for this.

Allyzay Dallas Multi-Pass (allyzay), Thursday, 17 March 2005 17:50 (nineteen years ago) link

Will OSX use a different font if you rename it? I'm really astonished that you can't change it!

Spotlight looks fantastic, but I'm wondering if it would be a serious resource hog.

Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Thursday, 17 March 2005 17:56 (nineteen years ago) link

Also, the good thing about buying individual parts with an inherently upgradeable machine is that if something goes wrong with one part, you can just replace it with something newer and better. There aren't many individual parts that are worth sending in for repairs (shipping, repair costs, downtime = $$$). This is all dependent on whether you're comfortable opening up a computer and removing/installing parts (it's really easy). Laptops are different of course (and one of the main reasons I still am not truly comfortable owning one).

Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Thursday, 17 March 2005 18:03 (nineteen years ago) link

So spotlight lets you search your system for files, and the contents of files? That's pretty cool. But it kind of proves my point, that the whole file folder/desktop metaphor is so unwieldy and irritating that another interface is needed just to make it somewhat useable.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 17 March 2005 18:16 (nineteen years ago) link

OSX doesn't have a built in search-for-files function?

RJG (RJG), Thursday, 17 March 2005 18:17 (nineteen years ago) link

Yeah, but I think Spotlight searches the contents of files too, and it searches as you type the word (kind of like how iTunes does it). But yeah I don't really see how it's any kind of revolutionary way to deal w/things. Haha it's hilarious that they're touting the fact that when you double-click on a search result it "opens in the appropriate application," I mean wtf else would it do.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 17 March 2005 18:20 (nineteen years ago) link

PILES (2003)

They should have implemented this already. I think it's a great idea.

TOMBOT, Thursday, 17 March 2005 18:27 (nineteen years ago) link

RJG, spotlight is basically search queries saved as folders, live updated, so that, for example, all files with 'fish' somewhere in appear linked in one folder.

Ally, where you and I differ; I have a T-Shirt with the slogan 'USE HELVETICA' on it, although Johnston would be better than Lucida grande which is an unpleasant font I'll grant you.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 17 March 2005 18:53 (nineteen years ago) link

We get too much Helvetica in New York, Ed, it's the Gill Sans of the American metropole. The MOMA, the subway.. fuhgeddabout it. I wouldn't mind Helvetica Neue though, maybe Helvetica Neue Ultralight. There are days when I want my whole powerbook to look like an issue of Cosmo.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 17 March 2005 19:02 (nineteen years ago) link

The world needs more Cooper Black and OCR A Extended.

TOMBOT, Thursday, 17 March 2005 19:10 (nineteen years ago) link

I use Twentieth Century Monotype all over my work PC though and think it looks wonderful.

TOMBOT, Thursday, 17 March 2005 19:12 (nineteen years ago) link

My swiss designer friend HATES Helvetica. She says it actually makes her suffer. I actually like it a lot, especially neue extended.

Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Thursday, 17 March 2005 19:12 (nineteen years ago) link

I got over Helvetica. As Tracer points out it's way too all over the fucking place if you're a planes, trains hold the automobiles please type of commuter. It means nothing any more.

I'm kind of in love with this "Hollywood Hills" truetype I downloaded but strictly because it makes all my official documents really amusing and stupid looking.

TOMBOT, Thursday, 17 March 2005 19:16 (nineteen years ago) link

Bah to serifs (Incidentally I just found out that the german term for sans serif fonts is 'grotesk')

Johnston and Gill Sans are superior and more beautiful sans serif fonts but helvetica has it's place.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 17 March 2005 19:17 (nineteen years ago) link

For a daily system font I want Univers Bold or Trade Gothic. Yes I am classy. And I am a bit 1998.

Haha Tom, that's what I loved about the old easy switcheroo font crap on Mac, you could make, like Budmo Juggler your default list-view font, it was hilarious.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 17 March 2005 19:19 (nineteen years ago) link

Ed there is quite a famous font, a bit like Univers, called AKZIDENZ GROTESK

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 17 March 2005 19:21 (nineteen years ago) link

Tom, you must write official reports in MN Dubbeldik

Ed (dali), Thursday, 17 March 2005 19:22 (nineteen years ago) link

That's how I discovered the term. Helvetica was designed as a replacement standard trade font apparently.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 17 March 2005 19:22 (nineteen years ago) link

xxpost
Ah but which Trade Gothic? I love Bold Condensed No. 20. and LH Extended.

Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Thursday, 17 March 2005 19:24 (nineteen years ago) link

Mm Spencer you're right those are both nice. For actually using them in a system it would have to be Bold Condensed 20, but just plain old bold is nice, too. I like having a little breathing room in there.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 17 March 2005 19:26 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm not such a fan of condensed fonts, they look crabbed and cramped.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 17 March 2005 19:27 (nineteen years ago) link

Avenir is my current favorite sans serif. The heavy weight is virtually identical to what Chanel uses for their logo.

Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Thursday, 17 March 2005 19:29 (nineteen years ago) link

good choice, Avant Garde Gothic is good too.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 17 March 2005 19:33 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.ign.fr/images/GP/ANN25.jpg

I would like to know what the name of the font used for place names on french 1:25000 maps is called. See bottom right of the above image.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 17 March 2005 20:08 (nineteen years ago) link

There's nothing in that corner.

sunburned and snowblind (kenan), Thursday, 17 March 2005 20:10 (nineteen years ago) link

apologies, bottom left. 'Talloires'

Ed (dali), Thursday, 17 March 2005 20:11 (nineteen years ago) link

Font snobbery beyond a certain point = mentalism

Dr. Eldon Tyrell (ex machina), Thursday, 17 March 2005 20:11 (nineteen years ago) link

One of the few pleasures to be had when developing on macs is being able to use Gill Sans in the IDE. It just looks so much better in OS X than it does in WinNT.

RickyT (RickyT), Thursday, 17 March 2005 20:13 (nineteen years ago) link

Cooper Black

sunburned and snowblind (kenan), Thursday, 17 March 2005 20:14 (nineteen years ago) link

I don't see much point in hating Helvetica. It's kinda like hating water or something. Even if you're Swiss. It ain't fancy, but it ain't going away, either.

You know what I hate though? Optima. Can't say why, exactly. It's the "Joy of Sex" font, and the "Planned Parenthood" font, and I can't look at the shampoo bottle in my shower now without being reminded of either those awful nude sex illustrations from the 70's or birth control.

sunburned and snowblind (kenan), Thursday, 17 March 2005 20:20 (nineteen years ago) link

Spotlight looks fantastic, but I'm wondering if it would be a serious resource hog.

Probably not as much as people are fearing. Basically, Spotlight is a front end to Tiger's database file system which allows for files to have metadata tags. It's very similar to the file system used in BeOS. Quoting from that article:

For the everyday user, though, BFS has much more tangible advantages. Any file or file type on a BFS volume can have arrays of metadata associated with it, in the form of "attributes." There is no limit to the amount, size, or type of attributes, and attributes can be displayed and edited, sifted, sorted, and queried for directly in the Tracker (Be's equivalent of the Finder). Because most attributes are indexed, search results are nearly instantaneous, regardless the size of the volume or the number of files being searched through. By default, BeOS ships with reasonable sets of attributes for common file types, but users are allowed to extend and customize these, and to create entirely new file types with entirely new arrays of attributes. In other words, the Be File System doubles as a database.

Users can use built-in filetypes with existing attributes, or create entirely new filetypes with custom collections of attributes. These files were used to deliver a dynamic web site out of the BFS database without using 3rd-party database software.

It is difficult to describe to users of other operating systems just how advantageous an operating system built on top of a virtual database can be. Only other BeOS users really seem to understand the power and flexibility of the database-like file system, and it is the single feature I miss the most from BeOS.

Copy your MP3 files' ID3 tags to Artist, Title, Year, Genre attributes. Sift and sort through your collection in the Tracker in almost anyway imaginable, or build playlists from MP3 attribute queries with far more flexibility than you get in other OSes.

BeMail messages store Subject, From, To, CC:, Date, etc. in attributes. Create virtual mailboxes based on live, instantaneous query results. This lets you obtain views of your email store that are irrespective of the actual folder locations of BeMail messages on disk.

Years ago, I created a custom file type based on text, with attributes for author, title, email, URL, etc. Then I wrote a CGI script in perl to extract and dish up these attributes over the web. In other words, I was serving up a database-backed web site without having to install or learn any database software whatsoever. That site now runs on LAMP, but you can see how the site was created here.

The OS-level metatags in BeOS was really really cool and I can't wait to see how it's implemented in Tiger.

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Thursday, 17 March 2005 20:26 (nineteen years ago) link

Does anybody else think that the font smoothing in OS X makes serif faces look better while XP's looks better with sans serif? Or am I just balls-out insane?

TOMBOT, Thursday, 17 March 2005 20:29 (nineteen years ago) link

Ed, that looks like Futura Medium Condensed to me.

Curious George Finds the Ether Bottle (Rock Hardy), Thursday, 17 March 2005 20:35 (nineteen years ago) link

Ed, on the French map, it's Futura Medium Condensed.

Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Thursday, 17 March 2005 20:41 (nineteen years ago) link

(whoops, what Rock Hardy said)

Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Thursday, 17 March 2005 20:41 (nineteen years ago) link

Yeah, me too, although it's not the same font as "les Granges" or "Ermitage St. Germain" which is the one I really like. I think there are like six fonts going on in that map!

xpost

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 17 March 2005 20:44 (nineteen years ago) link

I don't thik you're insane, Tom, but I think ClearType looks better regardless.

sunburned and snowblind (kenan), Thursday, 17 March 2005 20:44 (nineteen years ago) link

Taking Font Sides: Johnston or New Johnston?

I'm intrigued by the legal difference between Johnston and Gill Sans. Transport For London still claims ownership of Johnston and, especially, New Johnston - does the Strategic Rail Authority have any rights over Gill Sans?

caitlin (caitlin), Thursday, 17 March 2005 21:14 (nineteen years ago) link

I am more of a T-font person: Trebuchet, Tahoma, and Times New Roman.

Allyzay Dallas Multi-Pass (allyzay), Friday, 18 March 2005 02:48 (nineteen years ago) link

Taking Font Sides: Johnston or New Johnston?

I'm intrigued by the legal difference between Johnston and Gill Sans. Transport For London still claims ownership of Johnston and, especially, New Johnston - does the Strategic Rail Authority have any rights over Gill Sans?

Definately Original Johnston. I believe on Johnston the copyright has lapsed, Johnston himself having died more than 70 years ago but I don't know if a font can be trademarked as an entity in itself or whether it is is just the usage (Roundel, signage, map styles etc.) that is trademarked. I believe that New Johnston is under copyright and the move to new johnston was as much about having an important part of the coporate identity under copyright as improving clarity.

I shall persuade Ambrose to ask his Dad who knows about thses things.

As for Gill Sans, it's not been used on the railways for years. I'm not sure what is the type face is nowadays but it's not proper Gill Sans nowadays.

Ed (dali), Friday, 18 March 2005 09:18 (nineteen years ago) link


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