A new 30 Rock thread because I can't find the old one

do you guys have other tv shows that you watch that you can hold up to the high standard of being able to extract one line of dialogue and know which character said it?

1. Wasn't that line from Jack to Steve Martin's character?
2. "self-referential" usually implies "refers to self", not "is very wry"

i think he means the writer is being self-referential

I am holding it up to a high standard, perhaps foolishly so. I like the show. I watch the show. I criticize it as a fan.

xposts

I realize I may not be using "self-referential" in the right way. You could be right that it was spoken by Jack, but it doesn't really sound like Jack.

jack wouldn't know who bruce willis is?

see i would say that it does sound like jack. if any other character said it he/she woulda said just "harmonica." but with jack's way of speaking he says "rock harmonica"

the joke is jack lumping bruce willis with picasso. and it's very jack and very funny.

pair it with his phil collins line and we've proved nate RONG

what about his john legend cd?

the joke is jack lumping bruce willis with picasso. and it's very jack and very funny.

I don't think so. To me it sounds self-aware hipster, which Jack should not be.

hipsters be referencing bruce willis all the time, you're right.

No one would mention Bruce Willis in the same sentence with Picasso without being intentionally ironic. That type of irony is very hipster - not like Jack, who should be the opposite of self-aware (and usually is).

but Jack loves Phil Collins, (and therefore loves Bruce Willis) he's just like beloved ilx posted Max that way

the thing is, jack ISN'T being ironic.

he is sincere as fuck when he says that

Are you forgetting what bad taste Jack has? I don't think he was being ironic.

Maybe if he hadn't mentioned the harmonica playing I could believe it.

are you american btw?

I bet you love Bruce Willis and his rock harmonica playing, and this is just your elaborate way of fooling us into believing otherwise.

http://www.arras.net/circulars/archives/McCarthy.jpg xpost

Oh, I nearly forgot: I was buying a new microphone at Guitar Center on Monday night, and the sales guy was going on and on about how great he thought this particular microphone was, and as he was running my card he says: "I had Bruce Willis in here last week. You know how he plays the harmonica? He's actually a really good harmonica player, and he was looking for a mic for it. So I had him try this mic side by side with the SM57 and he said this one was hands-down the better one."

I'd like to imagine that this show reminded Bruce that he'd been slacking on the harmonica front, and he needs to get back in the game.

P.S. Why wouldn't Jack be sincerely impressed by Bruce's combination of action and rock harmonica? He has two ears and a heart, doesn't he?

that is an awesome theory and i pray it is true

yeah that's why it's so funny

Oh wait, someone already made that joke.

Seriously, though, I don't think Nate is incorrect in how he sees the show -- it very clearly leans toward the writing over any kind of deep naturalistic character development (duh), and there are loads of times where the characters are channeling the screwball joke in ways that require some suspension of disbelief in terms of them as living breathing people (duh) ... personally I like this, because I am watching a half-hour television comedy, and like I said above, I have zero idea why people cling to pseudo-naturalism in what's already one of the most insanely artificial formats on television.

I have zero idea why people cling to pseudo-naturalism in what's already one of the most insanely artificial formats on television

are you american btw?

Yes - not sure what that has to do with anything.

Seriously, though, I don't think Nate is incorrect in how he sees the show

THANK YOU

but he still thinks you're wrong

All true Americans have a deep abiding love for Bruce Willis and his rock harmonica.

If you disrespect everybody
That you run into
How in the world do you think
Anybody sposed to respect you
If you dont give a heck about
The man with a bible in his hand
Just get out the way and let
The gentleman do his thing

Youre the kind of gentleman
That wants everything their way
Take the sheet off yur face boy
Its a brand new day

Chorus
Respect yourself
Respect yourself
If you dont respect yourself
Aint nobody gonna give a good
Ca-hoot na na na oh oh
Respect yourself

If youre walking around thinking
That the world owes you something
Cause youre here
Youre going out the world backward
Like you did when you first came here
Keep talking about the president
Wont stop air pollution
Put your hand over your mouth
When you cough
Thatll help the solution

You cuss around women folk
You dont even know their name
Then youre dumb enough to think
That it makes you a big ol man

Chorus
Respect yourself
Respect yourself
If you dont respect yourself
Aint nobody gonna give a good
Ca-hoot na na na oh oh
Respect yourself

^^^^^ our secret National Anthem

All true Americans have a deep abiding love for Bruce Willis and his rock harmonica.

― Black Seinfeld (HI DERE), Thursday, December 4, 2008 2:40 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^^ THIS

Ca-hoot na na na oh oh

^truer words were never spoken

Keep talking about the president
Wont stop air pollution
Put your hand over your mouth
When you cough
Thatll help the solution

^^^something to keep in mind, FYI

i'm ashamed to admit that i sometimes cuss around womenfolk

Nate, I think you were just mis-articulating the thing about the Bruce Willis line. It isn't that it's out of character for Jack in particular; it's not an issue of character. It's that people's speech and naturalistic dialogue don't usually contain things like mismatched pairs of references, or comedy lists, or little turn-arounds of expectations -- those are all kinda sketch-comedy writing habits, where there's no attempt to hide the artifice of it.

So yes, "Picasso : painting :: Bruce Willis : action and rock harmonica" is a very writerish, constructed joke. Same goes with Kenneth saying "We Parcells have had our share of rock soup and squirrel tail ... but we have also known lean times." They're in character, they're just a bit arch and constructed. I think this is what makes the show special, to be honest -- the sensibility that differentiates it from most of what's around it -- but obviously I won't argue too much about the fact that I respond well to it and you don't.

I don't think this is just about scriptedness vs. naturalism. I mean, Arrested Development is an extremely writerly show, and I don't have the same complaints there because everything happens so fast and on multiple levels that a throwaway, slightly out-of-character joke isn't just an excuse to goof on a B-list celebrity, but it's also likely a pun and a callback to a joke from the previous season and you might not even realize it until a minute later. Whereas jokes on 30 Rock announce themselves as jokes, like you could almost put canned laughter after them.

I guess the truth is - and this may be a bit of a cop-out - that I don't mind things that are arch and constructed when they're funny. That Kenneth line is funny. It sets up perfectly, then pow - hits you with the punch line. And his delivery, IIRC, was spot on. The Jack line is kind of huh? Is it serious, is it ironic? I don't know - and either way it isn't funny.

xpost

Is it serious, is it ironic?

take a wild guess!

like you could almost put canned laughter after them.

ALMOST? CANNED LAUGHTER ON SITCOMS UNHEARD OF, SIR.

I think my favorite 30 Rock joke is still "You can't have a Lemon Party without Old Dick!" (with "Yay, equality!" a close second; that whole epsiode was genius)

I get the feeling that the very act of mentioning Bruce Willis and harmonica playing is supposed to be intrinsically funny. Like, can you believe what bits of pop-culture trivia we worked into the script this week? I think it tries too hard, or not hard enough.

xposts

i do see what you are getting at. tries too hard is maybe the right one. but it's the flavor of the show. those are the jokes.

xxxp Well, I recognize that that's true for 95% of sitcoms out there. I've probably been spoiled by The Office and Arrested Development. 30 Rock is the only other sitcom I've regularly watched since Seinfeld went off the air, so maybe I have high expectations for it. Like I said before, I still think it's a fairly amusing show.

Yeah, the thing that is supposed to be funny is holding up Bruce Willis as a pinnacle of his art of the same stature as Picasso.

Basically, you are failing at understanding jokes.

I think part of what I'm getting at is that if you rely on arch, constructed jokes for the meat of your comedy, then if they fall flat somehow, it feels even less funny than if an Office bit didn't work (because it might still feel "natural" -- the awkwardness might actually even work in its favor) or if an Arrested Development joke missed the mark (because there'd be another joke or absurd scenario three seconds later).

it's not that he doesn't get the joke. he's turned off by the fact that the joke makes him picture some harvard grad in a writing room being very pleased with a bruce willis joke.

he sees the man behind the curtain and he doesn't care for it.

agreed that 30 rock is very "writerly" but it doesn't bother me.

or if an Arrested Development joke missed the mark (because there'd be another joke or absurd scenario three seconds later).

i dunno, 30 rock has to be at least as rapid-fire as AD (if not moreso).

J, I think you're only half-right there. When Tracy says there are various parallels between the Jordans and the Menendi, and the last one is "both families are staples of Court TV," that really announces itself as a joke -- it's even a traditional list of three with the third one as the punch line. But the funniest part of the statement is that he says "Menendi" in the middle of it!

I am not going to rep for the Bruce Willis joke, because I don't think it was that funny, and didn't think the episode as a whole was a great one. But every time I use my new microphone, I will think that somewhere out there, underneath the same big sky, wishing on the same stars, Bruce Willis is playing harmonica into a microphone from the same stack, and a tear will roll down my cheek.

xpost - J, I would dispute that the pace of jokes on Arrested Development is any faster than 30 Rock. The editing and story move faster (to an extent that actually irritates me), but I don't think the pace of jokes is all that different.