Katrina's POLITICAL aftermath (keep the political discussions HERE)

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (1288 of them)
>CNN is my default cable news network, but I really haven't noticed them being particularly spine-ful until Katrina -- any examples?<

I'm sure you've noticed of late CNN getting rid of the pundit shows and moving to a hard news only format, right? I think the further they go towards that direction, the less likely you'll see them cater willingly to one side of the aisle or the other.

Alan Conceicao (Alan Conceicao), Friday, 2 September 2005 05:28 (twenty years ago)

(they're rerunning it now

close paren.

renegade bus (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 2 September 2005 05:29 (twenty years ago)

How much could recent politicians have done to reduce this disaster? I'm hearing people say more environmentalist restrictions/levee money but it's all vague on the details.

Cunga (Cunga), Friday, 2 September 2005 05:45 (twenty years ago)

people love to have someone to blame for natural disasters though. i think it's understandable, i imagine they must feel an overwhelming sense of lack of control and maybe that's one way to deal with it?

gem (trisk), Friday, 2 September 2005 05:51 (twenty years ago)

How much could recent politicians have done to reduce this disaster?

Before the disaster:

- Not cut the funding to levee projects that were underway

- Not dismantle FEMA

- Provide busses to evacuate people who had no transportation


Now:

- Make sure the people who are stranded in NO have adequate food and water.

- Make complete evacuation of remaining refugees the top priority.

- Respond to the situation immediately by travelling to NO, finding some dry land somewhere to land and meet with the mayor, give a speech, talk about what steps are being taken, reassure people etc.

Those should have been some bare minimum no-brainer sort of steps.

walter kranz (walterkranz), Friday, 2 September 2005 05:55 (twenty years ago)

yeah the bus and food ones one do seem blindingly obvious i must say

gem (trisk), Friday, 2 September 2005 05:56 (twenty years ago)

Lots and lots of info on Brad DeLong's blog

My lord, the guy heading FEMA has no qualifications. What was he doing before getting pulled into FEMA by the Bush administration in 2003? He was an estate planning lawyer in Colorado and of counsel for the International Arabian Horse Association Legal Department. And yes, it is the same Michael D. Brown.

After CNN reported today that helicopters were diverted from plugging the levee breach on Tuesday, in order to rescue individuals on rooftops, I wondered what is involved in securing sufficient helicopters in a national emergency. It took me two minutes of Googling to identify the Erickson Air Crane Company and obtain their email address and phone number. The Air Crane is one of the most powerful helicopters in the world (used for lifting trucks and putting out fires, for example). I emailed them today asking if anyone had contacted them about the levee. They replied immediately that while they had put out the word to government entities, and while they are a DOD-listed contractor, they had not been contacted by any Government entity as of Wednesday evening. The levee broke on Monday night. I assume that a governor, or a general, or maybe a President would have gotten the CEO of this company (and other companies like them) on the phone and said "get over there ASAP."

New Orleans had long known it was highly vulnerable to flooding and a direct hit from a hurricane. In fact, the federal government has been working with state and local officials in the region since the late 1960s on major hurricane and flood relief efforts. When flooding from a massive rainstorm in May 1995 killed six people, Congress authorized the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA. Over the next 10 years, the Army Corps of Engineers... spent $430 million on shoring up levees and building pumping stations.... Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars. Newhouse News Service, in an article posted late Tuesday night at The Times-Picayune Web site, reported: "No one can say they didn't see it coming..."

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Friday, 2 September 2005 05:58 (twenty years ago)

people love to have someone to blame for natural disasters though.

I don't think that's true and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a similar degree of finger pointing after other disasters. The fact that it's a natural disaster does put the focus squarely on Bush's response to the crisis as opposed to 9/11 where the administration's negligence was overlooked thanks to an easy foreign scapegoat.

You can try to write-off any political discussion as a mere blame game but do you really believe that none of the questions being asked are valid? Do you think the response to the crisis has been sufficient and that we've exhausted every capibility we have as a nation? I think the political questions would have been out of place on day one or two but at this point the situation is nothing but political.

walter kranz (walterkranz), Friday, 2 September 2005 06:19 (twenty years ago)

ok my apologies, as it may be my fault for seeming flippant, but i think you took my remark a little too seriously. of course i wasn't implying that the questions aren't valid, and i am certainly not 'writing off' political discussion as a 'mere blame game'. i am not familiar with your capability as a nation nor can i comment on the adequacy of the response, as i don't live in your nation and don't know what it's like there.

however i do indeed think that people like to be able to lay blame somewhere for natural disasters - it helps them feel a little more secure in a time of emotional trauma. and that's fair enough.

gem (trisk), Friday, 2 September 2005 06:23 (twenty years ago)

also, the disaster i had in mind as an exemplar for the finger-pointing was the boxing-day tsunami

gem (trisk), Friday, 2 September 2005 06:25 (twenty years ago)

(posted on the other thread but it applies here, too)

i had a thought earlier tonight...what would Johnny Cash have thought of all this?

Hell, what does Jimmy Carter think of all this? What Clinton thinks, some already have an idea...

kingfish 'doublescoop' moose tracks (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 2 September 2005 06:27 (twenty years ago)

I completely understand what you're saying. Sorry for the overreaction. I guess my response was itself an example of the type of misplaced blame you're talking about.

xpost

walter kranz (walterkranz), Friday, 2 September 2005 06:29 (twenty years ago)

please don't apologise!

gem (trisk), Friday, 2 September 2005 06:31 (twenty years ago)

Some thoughts on why people couldn't or didn't evacuate...

Look at the reporters who are "incensed" by the rampant looting. Look at the smugness from those distant from the situation who chastise the dumb southerners for not evacuating when they had the chance. It blows their minds how many idiots stayed to wait it out. It makes them shake their heads and make "tsk-tsk" noises into their shiny microphones.

Well, fuck the lot of them.

New Orleans and Biloxi are not rich cities. They are poor southern cities disproportionately filled with poor southern people -- people who may not have reliable transportation, people who live hand-to-mouth, people who have nowhere else to go, even if they had the means to get there.

And the evacuation was little more than a vague order to get the hell out -- under your own power and at your own expense. If you have, at your immediate disposal, reliable transportation, money for gas, and either distant family OR money for shelter, then this isn't a big deal. Of course you leave. You pack up everything you can and you head for higher ground. But it is somewhat less easy to do if you are lacking any one of these things, AND you have been informed that what little earthly lot you may claim is about to be destroyed. Do you hang on and try to save what you can? Do you let it go and return to less than nothing?

What the hell do you do?

and then in the comments

The last time my brother had to evacuate Florida for a week or so it ran him about $1000. He couldn't really afford it but had no choice. Hotels jacked up their prices. Gas was nearly impossible get. They spent 17 hours stuck in traffic to travel a distance that would normally take 7. They ended up holed up in a small hotel because they lucked into a room.

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Friday, 2 September 2005 06:31 (twenty years ago)

say! which Admin official will get a medal for fucking up the best this time?

kingfish 'doublescoop' moose tracks (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 2 September 2005 06:54 (twenty years ago)

ok maybe this is referenced upthread, i'm pretty tired, but i just saw a clip of diane sawyer interviewing bush and asking about the looting noting some people were only taking neccessities like food for their children and what the policy would be about these people, if the law was going to differentiate and bush's response was 'no, our policy is zero tolerance.' so yeah.

j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 2 September 2005 07:00 (twenty years ago)

So for about 3 days now, here in Canada, the news coverage eventually gets to the question "what can Canada do/what has Canada done for our neighbours?" Normally when there is an emergency in either country we are quick to assist one another (the Quebec ice storms, 9/11 etc). And for the last 3 days it's been the same answer, basically "we're waiting to hear back from U.S. officials to coordinate any relief efforts". That's what I've been hearing.

We have a Disaster Assistance Response Team specializing in water purification and medical treatment (DART was recently sent to Indonesia following the Tsunami), shipments of drugs and (for what it's worth) the Canadian Military all "on standby".

I just don't understand why we're not acting yet. Why hasn't any U.S. officials directed our resources anywhere. And failing that why hasn't DART just headed down on their own?

I guess maybe just showing up without the aid of U.S. coordination might be stepping on some toes and a tad chaotic - but when we've been offering our help for days i don't understand why it hasn't been sent anywhere.

There is a serious emergency going on and it seems the admin has a "Ya, thanks. We'll let you know" sort of attitude. And, for the most part, we're just twiddling our thumbs up here. It's kind of bothering me.

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 2 September 2005 08:05 (twenty years ago)

It must be impossible for a government to be this inept; this shit is intentional.

Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 2 September 2005 08:12 (twenty years ago)

cnn just broadcast wwl's interview with a very distraught mayor nagin, who said "i don't wanna see any more press conferences" and called for officials to "get off your asses and do something."

renegade bus (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 2 September 2005 09:37 (twenty years ago)

That zero tolerance thing is the most fucked up thing I've ever heard Bush say. And that's saying something.

RickyT (RickyT), Friday, 2 September 2005 09:45 (twenty years ago)

The fact is no aid agency can just turn up without official sanction there are all kinds of legal and logistical issues not to mention the current dangerous situtation on the ground.

Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Friday, 2 September 2005 09:46 (twenty years ago)

question: what effect could this have electorally? my understandign is that after 9/11, the emotions stirred were national - anger, patriotism, etc etc. and this must have had an effect on the next election. but is there enough anger or outrage nationally for this event to have any effect on any forthcoming elections?

ambrose (ambrose), Friday, 2 September 2005 09:49 (twenty years ago)

can't find a transcript of the entire nagin interview, but an article from tennessean.com has this:

Mayor Nagin blasted federal relief efforts as woefully inadequate and said the initial slow response to rising floodwaters was the cause of unnecessary deaths over the past four days.

In an interview broadcast on New Orleans radio station WWL-AM last night, an angry Nagin said federal officials, including President Bush, were too slow to respond to the city's worsening problems — both as flooding worsened on Tuesday as a key drainage canal caved in near the city's lakefront and later as thousands of desperate people waited for buses to get out of the collapsing city yesterday.

"They are feeding the people a line of bull, and they are spinning and people are dying," Nagin said.

renegade bus (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 2 September 2005 09:57 (twenty years ago)

also "get every doggone greyhound in the country and get their asses to new orleans."

renegade bus (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 2 September 2005 10:00 (twenty years ago)

i just heard ray nagin's speech. he's pointing out all the commonsensical things the federal gov't should've undertaken. as far as the red tape goes, lincoln suspended habeas corpus, right? then extralegal measures need to be undertaken to get everything "fixed."

the fema head's behavior has been reprehensible in all of his public statements, most of which were denials!

as far as political fallout goes, the president gets the most of the "break it/bought it" logic, but everyone looks complicit in this failure because the sweeping change from dept of interior to homeland security was rubberstamped by both parties to streamline internal issues like this!

blackmail.is.my.life (blackmail.is.my.life), Friday, 2 September 2005 10:04 (twenty years ago)

heh, soledad o'brien just gave a piece of her mind to mike brown (fema director). expect that to show up on crooksandliars soon.

renegade bus (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 2 September 2005 10:14 (twenty years ago)

CNN's Soledad O'Brien just gave the FEMA head the most vivid GRILLING i've seen on live television in as long a time as I can remember.

Vichitravirya XI (Vichitravirya XI), Friday, 2 September 2005 10:15 (twenty years ago)

x-post

Vichitravirya XI (Vichitravirya XI), Friday, 2 September 2005 10:15 (twenty years ago)

what is crooksandliars

All this was minutes after Carol Costello was almost breaking down on air.

Vichitravirya XI (Vichitravirya XI), Friday, 2 September 2005 10:16 (twenty years ago)

i'd love to be a fly on the wall at the various cnn production meetings right now.

xpost: http://www.crooksandliars.com/

renegade bus (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 2 September 2005 10:17 (twenty years ago)

from the lexington herald-leader:


'It's awful down here'

Knight Ridder staff and wire services

New Orleans continued to sink into chaos and lawlessness, as gunfire, explosions and fire were reported overnight. People have reportedly fired at police.

Ragtag armies of the desperate and hungry begged for help, corpses rotted along flooded sidewalks and bands of armed thugs thwarted fitful rescue efforts as Americans watched the Big Easy dissolve before their eyes.

About 4:35 this morning, a series of massive explosions rocked the riverfront a few miles south of the French Quarter. The cause of the blasts or the extent of any possible damage was not immediately known.

An initial explosion sent flames of red and orange shooting into the pre-dawn sky. A series of smaller blasts followed and then acrid, black smoke that could be seen even in the dark. The vibrations were felt all the way downtown.

The explosions appeared to originate close to the east bank of the Mississippi River, near a residential area and rail tracks. At least two police boats were at the scene.

Despite the promise of 1,400 National Guardsmen a day to stop the looting, a $10.5 billion recovery bill in Congress and a relief effort President Bush called the biggest in U.S. history, the chaos spred.

Congress was rushing though a $10.5 billion aid package, the Pentagon promised 1,400 National Guardsmen a day to stop the looting and President Bush planned to visit the region. But city officials were seething with anger about what they called a slow federal response to the catastrophe.

"I need reinforcements," Mayor Ray Nagin said Thursday night on WWL-AM. "I need troops, man. I need 500 buses, man. This is a national disaster. This is a major, major, major deal. And I can't emphasize it enough. It's awful down here, man."

Saying he would probably get in big trouble after his interview, Nagin ripped at President Bush. "We have an incredible crisis here and his flying over in Air Force One does not do it justice.

"Excuse my French - everybody in America - but I am pissed."

"This is a national disgrace," said New Orleans' emergency operations chief Terry Ebbert. "We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims, but we can't bail out the city of New Orleans."

At the hot and stinking Superdome, where tens of thousands were being evacuated by bus to Houston, fistfights and fires erupted amid a seething sea of tense, suffering people who waited in a lines that stretched a half-mile to board yellow school buses.

Houston's Astrodome, which had been taking Superdome refugees for the past day, is full and cannot take more people, officials say. It accepted more than 11,000 people and began sending buses to other area shelters and as far away as Huntsville, about an hour north of Houston.

The state of Texas agreed Thursday to take in three times more refugees from Hurricane Katrina than officials initially expected, bringing the total number of evacuees to nearly 75,000.

Texas Gov. Rick Perry announced that 50,000 more refugees would relocate to Texas, with plans to house 25,000 each in San Antonio and Dallas.

Ellen Dunkel of Knight Ridder Digital contributed to this report.

renegade bus (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 2 September 2005 10:28 (twenty years ago)

badgerminor posted a link to the nagin interview:
http://orbis-quintus.net/blog/mp3s/nagin.mp3

renegade bus (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 2 September 2005 10:46 (twenty years ago)

That Nagin interview was the most gut-twisting thing ever, and a tipping point if I ever seen one. Too real, there's no way to spin to safety after that - they can't argue with/diss on the MAYOR who's sounding like he's general manager of hell. I think this is the point when govt panic becomes transparent as Bill Cosby as Ghost Dad, or Predator after he is fatally wounded by Danny Glover. Had dinner with my parents and this gross thing officially became the topic of my family's first EVER serious discussion of politics, not joking. This is prime time jumbo terrible, and Johnny used to work on the docks. Where we going to for breakfast.

LeCoq (LeCoq), Friday, 2 September 2005 11:50 (twenty years ago)

And even the Nat. Review writer I've been corresponding with for the past hour has been surprisingly sympathetic. I'm telling you the mayor speech, it was a humbling, equalizing thunderclap of total abject realness that cannot be denied.

LeCoq (LeCoq), Friday, 2 September 2005 12:00 (twenty years ago)

One possible thing to hope for in the aftermath here is maybe the mainstream press will shake itself from its dogmatic slumber and start showing its teeth in other matters, not just national catastrophes. I mean, it's their fucking job, right? I guess that's a lot to hope for, though.

Keith C (lync0), Friday, 2 September 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

amen to that, lecoq.

renegade bus (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 2 September 2005 12:08 (twenty years ago)

as for the dipshit governor of Louisiana, isn't it feasible that in a barter economy people would fight for valuable goods like liquor and cigarettes as well as pharmaceuticals? Maybe a television would be enough to get a ride out of town from someone with a truck big enough to take just one more person. why has she been so cruel on this issue? clearly the redistricting of Louisiana (famous for the Donald Duck gerrymander) continue to take a toll and keep political and social distance between the political class and the people in ways I cannot fathom (I mean at basic human levels when most people just see people and not party, creed, race, etc.)

blackmail.is.my.life (blackmail.is.my.life), Friday, 2 September 2005 12:15 (twenty years ago)

what's the word on the UN aid situation? it has been offered in terms of money and expertise, but is our government too arrogant to accept it?

blackmail.is.my.life (blackmail.is.my.life), Friday, 2 September 2005 12:20 (twenty years ago)

It must be impossible for a government to be this inept; this shit is intentional.

Well yeah, it is intentional to a point. Incompetence at various levels is obviously part of the problem, but at least as far as the Buwh people go, that incompetence is partly a function of their ideology. The conservative mantra that "government is not the answer" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you underfund it enough while also treating it primarily as a vehicle for the pursuit of a narrow set of aims on behalf of a narrow set of people, you're going to be left with a hobbled goliath -- the "starved beast" of Grover Norquist's wet dreams -- run by people whose default position is that "government is the problem, not the solution." As others have pointed out (and as should have already been abundantly clear in the muddled domestic response to Sept. 11), these guys just don't take governing seriously.

(btw, on the BBC world service, they just read an email from an American listener who said the real problem was the "failed social policies" of the '60s and '70s, which had trapped all those people in dependent poverty. Because, you know, there was no poverty in America until LBJ invented it.)

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 2 September 2005 12:26 (twenty years ago)

LC OTM. That speech is just....fucking hell.

Matt (Matt), Friday, 2 September 2005 12:26 (twenty years ago)

"what you say to people who say that the federal authorities can't do anything unless asked for help?"

"Did the Iraqi people ask for help?"

Matt (Matt), Friday, 2 September 2005 12:30 (twenty years ago)

It's so absurd that the excuse would be to stand on ceremony for this after abolishing core principles in the Bill of Rights. The legal issues can be sorted out later; none of those lives can be regained. I'm amazed by the plutocracy - it's as though they haven't even a vocabulary of despair.

blackmail.is.my.life (blackmail.is.my.life), Friday, 2 September 2005 12:32 (twenty years ago)

Matt Frei on BBC News 24 has just said that the rescue effort is more poorly managed and more chaotic than when he was in Sri Lanka for the tsunami. What comes across here is a mixture of incompetence, disregard, fear and just plain old racism in the authorities response.

Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Friday, 2 September 2005 12:42 (twenty years ago)

Bush is now saying that the response has been "unacceptable" and he's gonna go down there to straighten things out.

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 2 September 2005 12:47 (twenty years ago)

is everyone aware that when Bush flies over, all aerial efforts need to be suspended to clear the airspace? i feel that not taking this seriously must constitute "high crimes," as though a criminal war hadn't already. the problem is that this is a bipartisan problem in a two party political monopoly.

where's that national discussion we were going to have about infrastructure and preparedness after the Northeast Blackout?

blackmail.is.my.life (blackmail.is.my.life), Friday, 2 September 2005 12:50 (twenty years ago)

And even the Nat. Review writer I've been corresponding with for the past hour has been surprisingly sympathetic.

Googleproof if you need to, but who was it? Cause here's what Goldberg just said:

I do agree with many readers that the real first responders in New Orleans failed. Some no doubt tried their best, others were too busy looting. I can understand the frustration of the Mayor, but this guy is pretty clearly not up to the job. Maybe no mayor would be given the nature of the calamity and the resources available. But this guy's complaints ring just a bit too self-serving for me. New Orleans has had rotten political leadership for decades and they simply cannot be allowed to point to Washington and say "it's all their fault!"

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 2 September 2005 13:06 (twenty years ago)

OK can someone sum up Soledad O'Brien's grilling of that FEMA dickface? Cos I've been wanting to grill him, like, literally, as in on a BBQ, since last night when I saw him actually say to Paula Zahn that the Feds had only "just heard about" the Convention Center a few hours earlier yesterday and had no idea they'd been there for like TWO DAYS AT LEAST. Apparently the Feds don't have access to CNN.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Friday, 2 September 2005 13:33 (twenty years ago)

can we please have a moratorium on jonah goldberg 'thoughts,' because he's just a douchebag who got 'lucky' by having a total disgusting wench for a mother and really anyone posting to this thread is like 100000x more equipped for analysis than he is

maura (maura), Friday, 2 September 2005 13:42 (twenty years ago)

maybe the mainstream press will shake itself from its dogmatic slumber and start showing its teeth in other matters, not just national catastrophes. I mean, it's their fucking job, right? I guess that's a lot to hope for, though.

i dunno. remember, we have an Admin who will bar you from asking any questions if they don't like you. that's what happenned to Helen Thomas 4 1/2 years ago when she asked the first hard question(a tradition she'd had since Harry Truman in the 40s). THey moved her to the back of the room and the AP had to let her go, since she was completely neutered as a reporter. They can cut any access they want. These guys have been in full Soviet mode for years...

some of the harsh tv folks lately have just finally stopped caring about their jobs just enough to actually do them.

kingfish 'doublescoop' moose tracks (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 2 September 2005 13:46 (twenty years ago)

can we please have a moratorium on jonah goldberg 'thoughts,'

I am a great believer in foot-in-mouth disease and wish to expose it so we may all understand it.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 2 September 2005 13:47 (twenty years ago)


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.