I HATE CLUBBING

I recall it being the "S&M crowd" - Scarborough & Mississauga, natch. (Sadly, I am from Scarborough), but in recent years I found the area code slur much more common, i.e. - "Richmond Street is full of annoyoing 905ers"

Ha, this is how the Accra rumour mill works. My sex life doesn't exist, therefore it has been invented for me.

And this thread is insania. Can't we get back to swapping shitty clubbing experiences instead of dragging a bloody hipsterism/class/snobbery rehash into it? It's harshing my buzz.

And even if you'll claim you don't, well, I do. Do you hate me?

i didn't like the idea of Hoxditch for years because i assumed it was full of people taking the idea of being 'hip' to unattractive (to me) extremes - see my definition of hip on the Define Hip thread - class didn't come into this. but i didn't feel at all comfortable whenever i hung out there (not often) even just a few years back (99-01) for a number of reasons. i thought the are was ugly, dangerous and just lacked 'soul' - but my perception v distorted because i knew the east side of town so poorly and was naturally biased. conversely (and perversely) i was envious because it was constantly hyped and still popular after saturation point and i would have liked to have been able to latch onto that earlier (no point anyway by the time i started going to clubs round that way). the western equivalent - Ladbroke Grove - didn't seem to have the same sort of buzz or attention paid to it, tho i felt v alien round that way too at first.

Given your inability to muster any kind of empathy for anyone other than yourself, that would make perfect sense.

it really is.

don't want to clog up this thread any further, or even engage this issue much longer. it continues here: The Stevie vs Kate class thread

I've worn a few shiny shirts in my day. but it's not a good look for me.

xpost hahahahaha!

why is there antipathy for expression through fashion?

why is there such antipathy here for the concept of display?

what is wrong with style over content?

1) Clubs stay open awfully late, I like to be in bed by 12.
2) Too loud
3) Too many people
4) No comfortable chairs
5) Too many flashing lights
6) They don't serve tea and cakes

Though, I guess everyone knew that I'd say this sorta thing already, I'm just being consistent. If you like clubs, that's cool, have fun.

nothing as such, it's just that there may be an attitude going with it, snootiness maybe - 'i am better than you, the clothes say so' - or just that people not dressing according to your own perception of what looks good is 'wrong' - most people think like that and make judgements as a result (often without realising even?)

why is there antipathy for expression through fashion?

because perhaps it's reinforcing an idea that to many is 'wrong' - clothes maketh the man, a sense of superficiality, a disguise, a distraction hiding the truth (that being that they are no better or worse than you). otoh it can be a lot of simple fun.

why is there such antipathy here for the concept of display?

i don't think it's really about that, it's about an attitude that tends to go with that approach.

what is wrong with style over content?

it suggests that the style is more important/more meaningful but a lot of people are perhaps conditioned to feel the opposite, and instinctively this feels correct MOST OF THE TIME - not that i don't appreciate what i consider to be good style - of course i do. just don't let it go to your head?

and whats wrong with superficiality or disguise? and whats this 'truth'? all peoples clothes tell us about them, even if they think they're clothes don't tell us things, they do

whats this attitude that goes along with overt display? and why is it a problem?

i think appearance is denigrated on this board, far too much, why is it less valued than other 'worthier' things?

Indeed, it's far better to get to know people in rather more amenable contexts than clubs.

I must admit I don't get the sense of a groundswell that's intent upon clubbing at my University, even upon finals, which may be to do with Cambridge having virtually nothing in the way of clubs, and also as people I find, yes, my word, they can accept just having a night in a student bar or pub, and actually have a good drink well priced, and good conversation.
I mean this may mean I don't move in mainstream circles - heck, I've spent one night in a club in the last University year (though it has been my last admittedly and hard work) - but I can accept that. I have been clubbing far more regularly when at home, with many long time friends, and while there was an early period where I really enjoyed it, recent times have been slightly more strained. Our particular Sunderland club had used to have rather a student-y mix on Thursdays yet recently it's gone the other way, and just does seem less friendly and that bit more like DL's crisp description, or the club in "The Office", say... I'd really like to find somewhere that had consistently good music, too.

stevem otm, again. steve, really, people will start to talk. [smooch]

I would like to disassociate myself from the sort of (intended or otherwise) class judgements and similar comments that have gone on. Perhaps if some people thought things through a little more before posting things may be better, and also if people didn't so easily descend into mud-slinging. Don't try it, folks. ;) From all I gather, this seems to be the ILX 'thing' at the moment; one finds it difficult to tell when people are being serious here, though considering the generally thoughtful crowd we have here, it's hardly going to be BNP-style aggro is it? ;)

I have had good impressions of a club crowd in Sunderland, which is as northern and working-class a city as you'll find (bloody BNP targetting it recently and thankfully failing). I have also had plenty of bad impressions, but I think I can fairly say I've never had an experience as bad as DL with his initial post; most of my worse nights would be more dependent on internal than external stuff... awful night in Newcastle once on this big club on some sort of boat, which apparently Gazza frequented in his time. Partly as it had was absurdly lacking in air conditioning of any sort, partly as the night had been miserable hitherto, what with two friends having a bit of a falling out. And partly as I hadn't planned on going there; was a not-too-close friend's birthday night-out.

what is right with superficial? shall we call the whole thing off? people like stuff to mean something most of the time, it's re-assuring, people like order tho they may profess otherwise. that superficial moment is only really important if it leads to something else, no? the moment alone, once past, does not seem important if nothing comes of it. is it even worth remembering otherwise?

i think gareth you should ditch the brown (jumper) btw. put your money where your mouth is and rock the fancy 'drobe yung.

At a young age I realized that as a defense mechanism for people making snap judgements about me based on my skin color, I made snap judgements about people who chose to mainstream themselves into a society that I felt would reject me if it thought it could get away with it with its PR intact. This led me to completely fuck with my style; clothes were clothes and didn't really mean anything, so there was absolutely no difference between showing up at school wearing a red plid button-down shirt with a sweater vest and khakis one day, followed by ripped jeans, combat boots and a concert t-shirt the next day, followed by khakis and combat boots with a dress shirt and a tuxedo jacket the day after that. I also willfully sought out friends from almost every demographic in the school; jocks, nerds, theater kids, band kids, choir kids, the church crowd, popular kids, skaters, goths, stoners, etc. I was determined to confound whatever expectations people had of me; I wanted to dress really shabbily, walk into a room, and ostentatiously show off the fact that I memorize stuff easily and can sustain a reasonable discussion. I wanted to look like a punk but sound like a moderate.

I wanted people to judge my book by my cover and I wanted to manipulate their judgement to be "first impressions don't actually mean shit; you have to get to know someone before you can draw a conclusion about him/her". I wanted to convert all of the small-minded people whom I perceived to think themselves above everyone around them into disciples of me, where my society is strictly egalitarian and perfect.

The irony that I thought I was the greatest person in the world and was essentially looking down on everyone around me didn't cross my mind until much, much later; it wasn't until I met someone who had embraced "the normal" who also turned out to be extraordinarily similar to me AND interesting AND interested in me that I realized exactly how much of a sneering shit I'd been since about the age of 14. (Of course I eventually married this person.)

The point to this mildly rambling story is that just as substance should not be subservient to style, style should not be subservient to substance. They are deeply intertwined and reflect upon each other MUCH MORE than people seem to be willing to admit. I have PLENTY of friends who disdain those who are fashionistas or who follow popular culture or read pulpy books because "they just aren't SAYING anything!" As I become older, I fail to see the distinction between their shallow pose of only enjoying oblique-prose literature or non-fiction, listening exclusively to NPR and clucking their tongues at those who aren't glued to CSPAN and the shallow pose of the people who are putting on ludicrously tight clothes to go out dancing, tuning in to the E! pre-awards show for Joan Rivers' outfit critiques, working out daily at the gym and weeping at the season finale of "Friends".