2008 Primaries Thread 2: THE QUICKENING

only heard the soundbites as usual -- isn't the irreconcilable opposition of "change you can Xerox" and "I'm honored to be here w/ Barck Obama" proof enough what an inept fraud Rodham is? Piss on her.

"I am honored to be here tonight with that thieving word-thief Barack Obama" does present some cognitive dissonance

also I don't know what this Wolfson guy looks like, but I would like to borrow Woody Allen's Giant Sock O' Manure from Annie Hall and use it on him.

I wonder if McCain watches these debates too, lolling at these whippersnappers boasting about their experience

what's your deal with waste products, morbs?

they turn him on

The failure to check people for weapons at Obama's speech is ri-G-damn-diculous. I have great trouble believing it was a completely innocent mistake (maybe it was, but it seems (a) bizzare and (b) too coincidental to me).

in addition to buying loads of snow shovels to clear the walks for caucusgoers. Mrs. Clinton came in third in the Jan. 3 caucus. It did not snow

That's kind of a dumb criticism. You buy snow shovels in case it might snow. When you make the expenditure you realize it may not snow, but if it does, you'll be ready. The cost of buying the shovels is considered worth it, in view of the possibility. Kind of the same reason people buy insurance. I can imagine the Times writing a zinger about that: "Mr. Smith bought travel insurance for his trip to Hawaii. He made the trip safely and without incident."

daniel, in order for the secret service's lightening screening at a rally to be a 'coincindence,' it has to, you know, coincide with something. i think obama should have the benefit of weapons screening at his events, for sure, but i don't think it's a significant portent that they lightened security at one event.

That's kind of a dumb criticism. You buy snow shovels in case it might snow.

sure. i just thought it was was phrased in a funny way. didn't really think it was a good substantive criticism of the clinton campaign (there are far better criticisms that can be made).

Well, Obama reminds many people of JFK and RFK -- two v. popular Democratic leaders -- and JFK was shot to death in Tx., during an event as President. And, obv., Obama's black, which leads to reasonable fear that, if he isn't well-protected, he could be killed.

(xp)

With all that background, I'd say it's f---g outrageous for the Secret Service to do what it did.

of course it's a reasonable fear, but it's a huge leap from recognizing those similarities and fears to attributing significance to such 'coincidence' and somehow implying that there's an inside job on obama's head in the works (and I'm not saying you said that, but that's the natural trajectory of this line of reasoning)

i've supported obama over hillary for this entire race but when everybody is creaming themselves over what a great speaker barack is im really unimpressed with his debate performance - hillary sounds smarter, tougher, more specific, better prepared, she doesnt stutter and um and uh on every line, and she appeals to actual concrete ideals instead of really vague change rhetoric. i dont think obama is as conservative or moderate as everybody wants to pretend he is, but i do wish he would actually defend his liberal beliefs as liberal ideas instead of this mushy touchy feely bullshit. i can see why hillary wants more debates - i always end up hating her for the weeks of smearing and dirty tricks that lead up to them but coming away from the actual debate i really want her to be president, even if i know she wont do like 70% of the stuff she's talking about

yeah elmo but think of how if the secret service during the kennedy years had only realized that kennedy and lincoln had the same number of letters in their last name, they would probably have beefed up security in dallas

ethan's right, every time i see a debate i like hillary more

just saying -- there was perhaps a legitimate reason for pulling the weapons screening; the secret service is not obliged to justify that move. and to imply that it was somehow a planned or careless negligence shows pretty bad faith towards the secret service, who i would generally trust to do their job.

Ethan's got a point, but presidents aren't involved in debates. After this year we won't see th candidates in this context until 2012.

Is Hillary going to move the presidential office if she gets elected? Or is she really going to sit in the oval office every day, knowing her husband did not have you know what with that you know who there?

(also: OTM - debates and speeches are pointless and completely irrelevant re: actually being the president)

shes gonna sit there smoking cigars laughing maniacally.

Well, unless there's a really good reason they're not sharing -- with us or, apparently, the Dallas Police, who were also upset by the order -- and given their stated reasons for the order -- they were worried abour delaying the event too long and the crowd ''seemed friendly'' -- I'd say they weren't doing their jobs well, at least in this limited instance.

I thought they both looked fine last night. I have grown to increasingly like HRC's stump speeches and debate performances and Obama, while not at his absolute best was okay, though anybody who is likely to choose or change their vote based on one debate is a bit of an idiot, imho.

debates and speeches are pointless and completely irrelevant re: actually being the president

I agree with you on debates being a rather artificial, collegiate forensics team, type of competition, with limited relevance to the Presidential job description. Speeches, on the other hand, are an important part of what a President does - it's an important part of how he communicates his vision to the people.

I too am impressed with Hillz debate performances up to the point that she drops a stinker like the Xerox line. Who the hell is advising her? Saying crap like that does nothing to help her likability factor. Basically, if Hill was just herself and brought it without having to resort to dirty tactics or crummy lines fed to her by her campaign advisers or her husband I would love her a whole lot more.

daniel, i definitely think it's an event worth noting but i really don't see any basis for outrage in one incident alone; if obama's security detail continues to show laxity -- if it becomes a trend -- it will and should raise some serious questions.

and again, that you don't think they have a good reason for not justifying the move to the public shows bad faith on your part.

debates and speeches are pointless and completely irrelevant re: actually being the president

I disagree. The bully pulpit is a trump card various Presidents have used against recalcitrant Congresses. It can be very powerful when well used and a Pres who lacks the ability to appeal directly to the people (and the press), almost invariably pays for it.

HRC has a glaringly tin ear, sometimes.

Bad faith? How? Look, if they said, ''We had our reasons, and we can't share them with you,'' okay, maybe. But to offer a threadbare reason means you can examine it.

And I'm not suggesting intentional misconduct. I'm suggesting (particularly forseeable) negligence.

And even though debates are not part of the president's job description, I think they do offer the public a chance to see the candidates put on the spot, forced to think on their feet, and to see how they react to pressure. So for that insight into their personality and intellect, as well as their ability to memorize lots of policy details, I think it is valuable.

Saying crap like that does nothing to help her likability factor

A nice imitation of Tim Russert.

woah, check cnn.com

Reports: An officer escorting Clinton's motorcade in Texas has died after crashing her motorcycle

brenda February 21st, 2008 11:14 am ET
I have watched cnn for a long time, but with all the bad reporting about Hillary Clinton and pro reporting for Obama I and going to stop watching cnn. I am very upset because cnn was my resting and relaxing time. I am very disapported with your reporting.

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa080222_wz_officerhurt.197253ed.html

cnn was my resting and relaxing time

brenda otm

I am very disapported with you

Wolf Blitzer is such a Hilz booster though!

as for this concluding ovation for Hil, maybe it came mostly from Obama's crowd?

http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/did_anyone_else_think_hillary_clintons_c

i don't know, at the time i really thought they gave a standing ovation because it was just the end of the debate!

that's what I thought too

Really? I thought her closing statement was the high-point of her debate performance.

Wait, I thought folx who actually attended these things would want them to go on forever, like gabbneb.

I thought her closing statement was the high-point of her debate performance.

I dunno I'm never moved by these bullshit "I feel your pain" rhetorical displays. that's just me tho. It seemed to me like everybody stood up and clapped cuz she a) made some nice speechifyin for once and b) it was the end

"let me tell you about [insert name], who lost their [insert precious possession], after so many years of [working hard/serving their country], that's not the America I know" = zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

you don't know any of these people and live in a hyperisolated bubble of security gimme a break.

who is more isolated? ts: Hillary Clinton vs. Shakey Mo Collier

I'm sorry did you say something? who let you through my phalanz of armed guards and handlers?

i guess you can't hear me through the Teachers' Association representatives and firefighters who are thronging you for autographs

I guess he can't hear you through the sanctimony.

I'm fairly certain Hillary Clinton - like the majority of the world's rich and powerful - can't remember, much less describe, the last time she went shopping for groceries, or rode a bus, or had an interaction with a stranger that was not mediated by several layers of security, press, and consultants. gimme a break. these people are not normal, average folk, the "I AM ONE OF YOU" rhetoric is always always bullshit.