i love when ILX gets all chessed out (ILX hot chess action is here)

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Oh for fuck's sake. I just screwed up royally with Julia. I warned you I was no good at this game!

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 18:56 (twenty-one years ago)

we should talk...

― Sven Bastard (blueski), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 19:01 (twenty-one years ago)

sundar you have a formation?????

i am so screwed

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 19:28 (twenty-one years ago)

OK, here is the Problem with chess: The Problem with chess is that it is so difficult to get past the point of making tactical errors (or even just ridiculous errors like I just made with Julia) that it is difficult to get to the point where you can really enjoy the stategery, which is, I suspect, where the true deliciousness of the game lies.

Another way of putting it is that, until (I assume) you reach a certain level, it often feels as if you lose because of a mistake rather than because of choices you've made. (Although perhaps they still feel like mistakes, even at that level?)

(The Problem with go is that it takes a zillion games before you even begin to have a sense of how the pieces work. It doesn't take quite as long in chess to stop flailing around pointlessly as much.)

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 19:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not sure that that's quite true! There's a Go proverb, "lose your first fifty games as quickly as possible" - I reckon after those fifty you can pretty much "play go" in a sane if unimaginative way. That doesn't seem much more or less than chess, really, which has a steeper learning curve if you start from not-knowing-how-the-pieces work...

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 20:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the actual difference is closer to: in chess it takes longer to stop making mistakes that a beginner could say "well, that was a mistake", about?

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 20:02 (twenty-one years ago)

The problem of not remember how a bishop moves is very different from the metaphysical terror of not knowing the meaning of a stone played in any particular spot. In chess, a few simple heuristics (control the center, know the "values" of the pieces, maybe "don't move a pawn forward without a good reason") will get your game up to non-embarrassing levels, and only after that do you start worrying about "how should pawns be used". Perhaps there are simple heuristcis in go as well, but go seems to be all about seeing the implications of your moves, even at beginning levels, whereas beginning (1100-1400) chess players don't need to worry about that as much.

But then I'm still working through my fabled first 50 games of go. I beat the GNU go last night with a 7x7 board and 2 starter pieces, so I felt a bit proud of that. Then I tried it again and it smote me.

By saying there is a "Problem" with either game I am not saying they are bad games. The actual Problem with chess is that it has been analysed to death, and I suspect Fischer Random Chess is the better game. But I haven't played it yet (or, I always play as if I'm playing it).

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 20:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I'm being disingenuous to an extent. The real equivalent of "knowing how the pieces move and a few simple heuristucs" is maybe "knowing how stones connect", for which there are actually pretty good heuristics (one-space jump is connected unless they have overwhelming local strength, knight's move is connected if you have one other useful local stone or access to an edge, etc etc).

Games are so great.

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 21:20 (twenty-one years ago)

(7x7 with 2 stones is impressive!)

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 21:23 (twenty-one years ago)

stevem vs julia is around 35 moves now after a week of play with only about five pieces taken

― Sven Bastard (blueski), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 21:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Too many exceptions, Mr. Puzzleworth!

(7x7 with 2 stones is impressive!)

I guess so. I tend to lose by 10 points or so with no handicap stones, though. And it won't let me take just 1 handicap stone.

I have already resigned in my Ken rematch. Dude fucking blitzkreiged me.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 21:28 (twenty-one years ago)

i know, it's a kinda crazy game, stevem. i'm enjoying it though.

i just got checkmated by chris p! i totally overlooked an obvious mistake, and was way way too fixated on this one checkmate possibility i would have had if i could have only gotten him to move his one rook.

i suck at chess. but it's fun.

― JuliaA (j_bdules), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 21:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Ooo, Ken might have let me back into our game, sortamaybe!

One handicap stone doesn't really have any meaning - it'd actually be a disadvantage, moving first but having no choice where to put the stone? Small advantages are generally done with point bonuses (or lack of the normal one).

You are maybe right, about exceptions. I should revise.

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 21:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Julia's rather severe checkmate threat hung over my head for much of that game. Everything I did was in terms of "well, can I still get out of her checkmate plan?" It was pretty great/annoying!

I beat the 7x7 with no handicap stones, at last. The game, on the small scale, is starting to fill me with less dread.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 21:44 (twenty-one years ago)

and they say the interweb is full of geeks ;)

i would join in but:

a. i are SHOCKING at chess
b. i worry about the drain on my time
c. accessing redhotpawn at work...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 21:46 (twenty-one years ago)

(I finally realized what you meant about the 1-stone thing, GP. D'oh.)

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 21:47 (twenty-one years ago)

resistance is futile, greg!

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 23:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I'LL NEVER SURRENDER

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 00:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Am I blind? Why would GP give up? Get him! Get him!

― Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 00:06 (twenty-one years ago)

And by "get him" I mean "draw".

― Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 00:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Ken has beaten me at the death. He is a TOYIN' CAT. I have nothing, nothing.

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 00:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, wait, now I see. See, I told you I'm bad at endgames.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 00:11 (twenty-one years ago)

everyone's ignoring captainzep who is basically going to win

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 00:12 (twenty-one years ago)

All you need to do is survive 50 moves!

― Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 00:12 (twenty-one years ago)

My only tactic is attrition

― The Horse of Babylon (the pirate king), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 00:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Everyone is always winning until Ken's ENDGAME OF STEEL, though!

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 00:15 (twenty-one years ago)

what is this 50 moves thing????

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 00:18 (twenty-one years ago)

He is the Comeback Kid! But with knives!

― Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 00:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Ken: 50 moves with no capture (and no pawn move) = automatic draw. Unless I'm misremembering.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 00:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm so going to the library right now and taking out more chess books.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 00:20 (twenty-one years ago)

ooh i see! actually yeah i wonder if i can manufacture a perpetual check or stalemate situation..........

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 00:22 (twenty-one years ago)

i think when i finally lose this game i'm going to retire from chess... it's very tiring!!

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 00:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Right - I'm crashing and leaving the game on a knife edge...

― The Horse of Babylon (the pirate king), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 00:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I am taking the ken agony as a sign and deleting my bookmark. I want a degree.

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 00:47 (twenty-one years ago)

All this online chess has got me playing the chess game you get with osx. Only to find it beats me even easier than everyone on redhotpawn (except ken).
I just hope the experience makes me a better player.

― Greig (treefell), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 16:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I am RJG

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 16:20 (twenty-one years ago)

nice to meet you RJG

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 17:19 (twenty-one years ago)

do you mean "beat"?

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 17:22 (twenty-one years ago)

I am a loser : (

― Cathy (Cathy), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:51 (twenty-one years ago)

The only losers are the ones who don't play!

― Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 21:20 (twenty-one years ago)

i've lost five games! i'm on a roll!

― JuliaA (j_bdules), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 22:59 (twenty-one years ago)

That's because you pick only the best challengers.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 23:02 (twenty-one years ago)

that's a lie, i'm not that good! only ken and greg have beaten me so far tho. chris i now challenge thee...

― Sven Bastard (blueski), Thursday, 24 March 2005 00:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I am taking it slow.

― cozen (Cozen), Thursday, 24 March 2005 01:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I am all chessed out.

― cozen (Cozen), Thursday, 24 March 2005 01:56 (twenty-one years ago)

All this online chess has got me playing the chess game you get with osx. Only to find it beats me even easier than everyone on redhotpawn (except ken).

But isn't the programme designed to play like a master? I mean, it beats me easier than anyone on redhotpawn, Yahoo Chess, and offline too. Not to mention that playing in real time makes things more challenging. The programme plays with my head - I think I've made a safe capture of a major rank but actually I've played a part in creating a setup that materializes 5 moves later and which ends up cutting me off from even moving.

What's a good book on strategy that's easy to follow? I took out Evans' Chess Questions Answered, which is useful, but I find its layout to not be totally user-friendly.

Tomorrow night I aim to see if chess lessons can be transferred to the kickboxing ring.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 24 March 2005 07:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmm, I fear over-dogmatic application of 'rules' from Evans may have cost me against blueski.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 24 March 2005 07:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Sundar does not so much have me by the balls, but rather has a pair of tweezers with which he keeps plucking ball hairs, with no warning, one by one.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Thursday, 24 March 2005 07:59 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm scared of you guys who are actually STUDYING this now!!

haha and just to immortalise it (before captainzep kills the streak)
http://www.lolrider.com/pwn/pawn3d.jpg

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 24 March 2005 11:53 (twenty-one years ago)

WOW. You're a hero!

― Cathy (Cathy), Thursday, 24 March 2005 17:06 (twenty-one years ago)

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