A New Thread fot the Current Israel/Palestine/Lebanon mess

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738739.html

Part of me sees this cross-border fighting continuing on for a few days. Lebanon is thrown back 30 years, Israel decides it's taught someone a lesson and stops the attacks, whatever, and we're just back in a stalemate with more bad blood on both sides. At least let someone come out of this with a different perspective.

... I agree, but this is ruling out some massive war mobilisation on the part of the US. Which I don't see happening without a direct attack on the US, but then stranger things have happened.

The militant group Hezbollah claimed responsibility for the attack on Haifa, saying it was responding to overnight Israeli airstrikes inside Lebanon.

Shortly after Haifa was hit, the head of Israel's northern command, Maj. Gen. Udi Adam, warned civilians in southern Lebanon to head north because "in two or three hours we are going to attack south Lebanon heavily."

CNN's Alessio Vinci described the scene in the southern part of Beirut as "utter destruction," with buildings collapsed and large areas devastated. (Watch devastation in southern Beirut -- 4:30)

The Israeli military said the airstrikes hit buildings where Hezbollah members lived and worked.

The Associated Press reported that the airstrikes reduced entire apartment buildings to rubble and knocked out electricity in parts of Beirut.

Earlier, journalist Anthony Mills said he heard at least six bombings near the Lebanese capital between 11 a.m. and noon (4 a.m. and 5 a.m. ET).

Lebanese officials said Sunday that 104 people have been killed and 286 wounded in the fighting between Israel and Hezbollah militants that began Wednesday.

A total of 12 Israeli civilians and 12 Israeli military personnel have been killed since Wednesday. More than 100 others have been wounded.

The AP reported Sunday that an Israeli airstrike in the southern port city of Tyre killed nine civilians and wounded 42, according to security officials, and that five of those killed in Israeli airstrikes in Lebanon on Sunday held Canadian citizenship.

In the attack on Haifa, one of the Hezbollah rockets hit a railway depot in the city's industrial zone, killing at least eight and wounding 17 others -- six of them seriously -- Israeli medical services said. (Watch train depot shattered by rocket -- 2:29)

Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah said Sunday that his fighters still have plenty of weapons and the will to keep fighting.

"Our fighters are ready, and they love the confrontation and have the determination to defeat," he said in a televised address in Arabic to the Lebanese people.

"And as we surprised [Israel] in the sea, and as we surprised them in Haifa, we will surprise them with what's beyond Haifa," Nasrallah said.

He accused Israel of attacking civilian targets, while insisting that Hezbollah was patient and has aimed its rocket attacks only at the Israeli military.

"The enemy does not know our capabilities," he said. "The Zionist enemy is ignorant of what we have on all levels. We are still in the beginning, and the Zionists will see."

Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz said the attacks on Lebanon will not end until Israel is sure "the reality will change" so there are no threats on Israel by Hezbollah.

Peretz spoke in Haifa hours after the Hezbollah rocket attack.

"Everyone who has attacked and harmed the city of Haifa and the Israeli home front will pay a very expensive and costly price for this," Peretz said.

Israeli Transportation Minister Shaul Mofaz said the missile contained Syrian ammunition.

"The Iranians supply Hezbollah with weapons and technology," said Mofaz, Israel's former defense minister. "Syria is taking part."

The weapon was a Katyusha rocket with a range of 35 to 40 kilometers (22-25 miles), Israel Defense Forces spokeswoman Miri Regev said.

Iran rejected a similar Israeli assertion that it supplied Hezbollah the missile that struck an Israeli warship off the coast of Lebanon on Friday, killing four Israeli sailors.

The Israeli military found the bodies of three of the sailors Sunday. The body of the fourth sailor had been found the day before.

Rockets also hit the northern towns of Akko and Nahariya on Sunday, and residents of northern Israel were told to take cover in bomb shelters. (Watch fear gripping Israeli towns -- 1:45)

Meanwhile, a U.S. military team has arrived in Beirut to assist in the evacuation of Americans trapped in Lebanon by the fighting, the U.S. Embassy confirmed. (Full story)

Israel on alert as far south as Tel Aviv
The Israeli military warned residents as far south as Tel Aviv to raise their level of awareness, as the country is on alert against conventional weapons, according to the Israel Defense Forces.

The Israeli military said Hezbollah has fired more than 450 rockets into northern Israel since Wednesday.

Speaking before his weekly Cabinet meeting, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the attack "will have far-reaching implications" on Israel's relationship with its "northern neighbors."

A spokesman for the Italian government said Lebanon has been given a list of Israeli conditions for a cease-fire that includes the release of two Israeli soldiers captured by Hezbollah, the withdrawal of the group from south Lebanon and an end to rocket attacks on Israel.

The conditions were relayed to Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora in a phone call by Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi, according to Italian spokesman Silvio Sircana.

Hezbollah, which is backed by Syria and Iran, is considered a terrorist organization by the United States and Israel. The group holds 23 of the 128 seats in Lebanon's parliament. (What is Hezbollah?)

Other developments:

Israeli forces bombed the Jiyeh power plant south of the Lebanese capital early Sunday, sending plumes of smoke billowing across the sky, Lebanese army sources said. The sources said they had no report on casualties in the strike. Israel also struck northern Lebanon near its border with Syria.

Israeli forces redeployed to Beit Hanoun in northern Gaza early Sunday to halt Qassam rocket launches, the IDF said. The Israeli military moved in after launching three airstrikes overnight Saturday to quell "terror infrastructures" in northern Gaza. (Full story)

Arab League Secretary-General Amr Moussa called the Middle East peace process "dead." Speaking at a news conference after a meeting of Arab League foreign ministers in Cairo, Egypt, he said the peace process failed "because certain powers have given Israel every capacity to do whatever it wishes."

The flamboyant, over the top reactions to attacks on Israel's military check points and the abduction of soldiers -- which I agree Israel must respond to -- seems to be part establishing "bona fides" by Olmert, but far more important, REMOVING from the table important policy options that the U.S. might have pursued.

This article speaks of the "chilling" message sent to Palestinians and Lebanese:

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/review/article_full_story.asp?service_ID=11741

Israelis were already sent that "chilling message" many years ago. Palestinians have long considered Israeli civilians legitimage targets and have openly expressed desires to kill as many as possible, women and children included.

This article speaks of the "chilling" message sent to Palestinians and Lebanese:

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/review/article_full_story.asp?service_ID=11741

Israelis were already sent that "chilling message" many years ago. Palestinian militants have long considered Israeli civilians legitimage targets and have openly expressed desires to kill as many as possible, women and children included.

What will come of this, if anything?

also, does anyone think that the captured soldiers will possibly make it out of this alive? it seems to me that the nature of the response has basically signed their death warrants (ie - why on earth would Hezbollah bother to keep them alive at this point?).

More and more, it appears that Israel has determined that its goal is to cripple Hezbollah. If that trick can be managed, it will deliver a blow not only to Hezbollah but also to Syria and Iran and the entire Militant Islamist movement.

It also would produce a huge benefit for the vast majority of Lebanese who do not want their country run by Hezbollah/Syria/Iran and who do know that the Israelis have no wish to remain.

Since disarming Hezbollah is what is called for by the “international community” in UN Security Council Resolution 1559, it is hard to see how even the French could call such an action disproportionate.”

It makes one wonder what the French would regard as a proportionate response. Forming a collaborationist government in Vichy, perhaps?

with handclaps, even!

Oh, yes, this logic has proven so true for Afghanistan and Iran!

omg the lady that's as giddy as a bride waiting for her bride!!! LIKE, ATTACHING THE VEIL AND SHIT.

I don't think anyone disagrees with Israel attacking Hezbollah. The unfavorable response is because of:

1) the destruction of Lebanon's economy (as I noted above, they were enjoying a healthy tourist industry; those days may be over)
2) the large number of civilian casualties, including a number of said tourists
3) crippling non-Hezzbolah Lebanese infrastructure such as airports, highways, ports, bridges, power stations, etc.
4) stranding tens of thousands non-Lebanese without warning in an instant warzone, which has also created the conditions for the possible seizure of Western hostages

LEBANON ?‚ HEZZBOLAH

"The 'disproportionate' response is bullshit. It means you think they should just take it. If Canada shot rockets at the Twin Cities every day, how do you think the US should respond? What if they weren't Canadian rockets, so we couldn't blame the whole country, but instead they were "Conservative Party" rockets? What if the "Conservative Party" publicly admitted they want to destroy the twin cities? What does "proportionate" mean?"

Uh, no. Why does it have to be black and white? I can support your goal without supporting the means you have choosen to obtain that goal.

If Canada shot rockets at the Twin Cities every day, how do you think the US should respond? What if they weren't Canadian rockets, so we couldn't blame the whole country, but instead they were "Conservative Party" rockets? What if the "Conservative Party" publicly admitted they want to destroy the twin cities? What does "proportionate" mean?

If the missiles were short-range and all originated from Toronto, and we decided to bomb Ottowa and Montreal, causing civilian deaths unrelated to the immediate cessation of the missiles in Toronto and endangering the lives of non-Canadians who were not given the opportunity to flee the country, then yeah, I'd say our response was disproportionate. Then we'd just be throwing our weight around.