Irish politics discussion thread

Agree on the sovereignty - the irony of the IT asking this morning what the men of 1916 would be thinking was fantastic.

What i don't get is all this whinging about sovereignty coupled with the 'line in the sand' attitude to our corporation tax rate, as if that were part of the glorious heritage of our patriot dead, instead of being the financial equivalent of the red light on a brothel window for MNCs looking for a cheap - and temporary - extra- national bed for their profits.

i think the IT editorial even nodded to that, yeah

i cant remember who it was, maybe john bruton?- but his argument was (paraphrased) 'i don't think that the EU want us to do anything to effect the only tax that is consistently over-delivering'.

yes, but at whose expense? pretty much the rest of the EU i think, looking at all the multinational european headquarters based here atm.

it's classic irish cute hoor politics, the corporation tax rate. i think i might actually loathe it.

ps i dont really give two runny shits for irish sovereignty. national central govt that dismantles local decision making in the way we have since jack lynch in 1977 isn't worth crying over.

sovereignty is being mistaken for like...national identity or national pride, or irishness. totally otm in your words there. if there's any meaning in being irish it transcends economic decisions. it's not that it's not important that we can run our country, just that actually being irish can't really end or be taken away. nationality is an idea at the end of it all i suppose.

yeah- it's part of you, assuming it means anything to you at all. i'd be very glad if my compatriots could not run the nation we co-inhabit into the ground, but if that is the case then by all means import expertise. don't change how i feel about the way sally o'brien would look at ya or anything, kind of thing

if there are firms in ireland that only remain here because they get away with contributing less than their fair share to society, they're best out of it.

They do contribute 10% worth of taxation though, and employment. If Facebook/Google left I don't think there would be much net benefit to the country.

if they left.

we have a lot more going for us that the rhetoric bigging up the corporation tax would have you believe.

particularly now, with graduates flying out of university into a much more competitive jobs market. the fall in labour costs alone over the past two years has probably eaten into a lot of the difference a 2% Corp Tax rise would make.

we'd still be well below EU average at that, native english speakers, well educated, gateway to europe, what have you.

i'm tryin to stay positive here, i'm usually the black morass of despair itt.

lots of doublespeak around the EU/IMF/Whoever not having the power to 'force' us to raise it tho- they don't have to 'force' us to do anything, nor do they have to 'give' us a couple dozen billion quid. the most galling thing about a lot of this is the stupidity lenihan and cowen seem to take for granted in the electorate.

mind you the electorate haven't given them any discouragement there for the guts of two decades so.....

Fine Gael deputy spokesman for finance, with responsibility for public expenditure, Brian Hayes said he had no regrets about telling former minister Frank Fahey he was talking “a pile of s**t” when they both appeared on a radio programme yesterday morning.

Mr Fahey, speaking on Newstalk’s Breakfast Show, told presenter Ivan Yates, Ireland was in a “pretty good position”, the State’s sovereign debt was in a “good situation” and the Government had handled the economic crisis well.

brian hayes otmfm, but really he should have thrown a few slaps as well

skip buddle buddle buddle and head for about 14 mins.

not everyone want to hear the opposition oppose/attack, but tbh it should have been this and nothin but this level of face-chewing from lab/fg this past two years.

i'm near enough the stage where i'm now worried that taking on these loans from the bailout fund could be another bank guarantee all over again, as per prof kinsella in the last minute of this clip. haven't had a chance to realy read about the conditions/intentions for this money, but if we're talking 20-90bn at 5% a year, and all that's planned for it is to go to the banks/bonds, then that's insanity. we should lock the ferry ports and close the airports if the IMF try to land with that level of suggestion, it's practically the irish taxpayer rescuing a crisis hit euro through more FF credit-card economics.

sorry, link

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1118/economy1.html#video

its not so much about money. its the way the country just feels like its crumbling.

well yeah, but society, or whatever you want to call it, has been wearing thin because of grab grab for a long time now. money papered over that for a long time. when the money goes, it uncovers an awful lot of ugly stuff in the political system.

WELL THAT ALL SOUNDS LIKE PRETTY FUCKIN GOOD NEWS THEN, THANKS FOR KEEPING US UPDATED.

i hope lenihan is dying. i hope the other cunt sharply follows suit. 15% approval, dead on its feet and they're locking us into 90bn of debt to cover investor debt. unforgivable, incredible.

a british journalist has to ask cowen how much blame he holds, how ashamed he is and if he'll step down.

irish media is rotten to the core.

VINCENT BROWNE YOU ARE MY HERO is trending on Twitter. Srsly it's easy pickings for these dinosaurs to just turn up and rant and rave at the taoiseach. If any of them were doing their jobs they'd have done it when it mattered.

not sure what you are getting at there, sure VB has been carrying on like this for years?

What did he do?

Vincent Browne? He asked Brian Cowen how much further debt is being incurred - which Cowen refused to answer. He also asked him to accept the blame for the whole mess, which of course he was never going to do. RTE cut away during the questions, plus their coverage was at the usual abysmal standard.

a british journalist has to ask cowen how much blame he holds, how ashamed he is and if he'll step down.

irish media is rotten to the core.

― Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac),

Aha, thanks! - xp

cowen didnt answer a question he didn't like. lenihan didnt answer a question he didn't like. they repeated their statements every time they were asked about resignation, their credibility, their authority to bargain on behalf of the country, and whether or not they lied to the country all last week.

personally, i have no problem with these questions being asked. yes, they should have been asked every day since sept 2008, but these two guys haven't made themselves very available for direct interview, and they just ignore every question they wish to avoid. the standard of accountability is contemptible, laughable. the opposition are as much to blame for this standard as anyone else, ever since b ahern was allowed mumble his way through the late 90's and beyond without ever once answering a direct question in our parliament.

yeah i don't have a prob with them being asked, i dunno, just the cheerleading i guess. it shouldn't be something to praise v browne for...

v browne has fallen a long way but tbf to the dude he's been asking the right questions all along- just that nobody listend to the crazy old bastid anymore

why did cowen etc extend the guarantee to all bank liabilities in the first place or whatever? i remember them doing this and it being seen as courageous or s/thing

sorry i'm a bit entrylev wrt the eire clusterfuck

that is not entrylev, that is the U&K current question that failed completely to matter as a result of today.

yeah but i can't even remember the stated reason at the time

i think it was just to forestall blind panic, like everyone would see the cast iron guarantee of eire plc and be reassured the whole house of cards was secure

apparently people who invest in banks shouldn't ever lose money, and a guarantee on deposits only or to the tune of some such wasn't an option.

basically, the four bank chairmen told the minister for finance that it was necessary one weekend, and he went with it. even after it was clear that they'd been persistently feeding the govt false info, he kept renewing it. last month saw us pay c.55bn to bondholders on behalf of the banks, that's where the crisis came from- the ecb said enough was enough and we had nowhere else to go come spring, when our current reserves run out.

xps, yes, that washed until you can send in some goon accountants to go over every fucking detail and make some actual decisions. two years on and the imf are doing that now.

http://imgur.com/O4FEM.jpg

i fall short of believing they're both criminally stupid, so i'm gonna call em both corrupt, with vested interests in propping up dead banks and ensuring full repayment of the correspondent debts that we will hear about maybe two decades from now

lenihan has gotten kudos from day 1 of this crisis. he's been wrong, hasty, inflexible and frankly naive ever since the guarantee,

why did cowen etc extend the guarantee to all bank liabilities in the first place or whatever?

There was perceived to be a real likelihood that the banking system was about to completely collapse, which would have shut down the economy as it would be almost impossible to buy, sell, or pay for anything. The bank guarantee scheme might not have been the best response to that crisis in retrospect, but I have a certain sympathy for people who were dealing with very big decisions in a very short time frame. Now, as other commentators have said, they maybe were asleep at their desks if they let things get that far, but that is another matter.

Government collapse begins.

http://imgur.com/k4MZF.jpg

WTF?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/ireland-business-blog-with-lisa-ocarroll/2010/nov/22/ireland

That's utterly brutal if accurate...interesting that the villain-of-last-month NAMA contributes just 1/40th of the total.

even more unimpressed with cowen than normal- his 'i know what i'm doing, fuck the lot of ye' steez doesn't mix well with his thundering 'row in behind me for the national good' re@ budget, four year plans.

he doesn't seem to realise that people are terrified of what he'll do given the chance to lock us into a four year plan. i cannot imagine how the national interest could possibly be served by giving him that kind of power as a going away present- what would be the point of being in govt after it?

imo he shouldn't even be given the chance to produce a budget for the coming year. he and lenihan have no justifiable right to dictate financial procedure to this country after the last half decade.

if fg and lab dont try to push the govt out before a budget, it will be yet another huge political mistake on their parts. thing is, this 'national interest' shit seems to freeze keny in his boots, allowing FF to wreak havoc while he backs slowly out of any challenge.

that other article seems less than rigorous, tbh. i dont think anyone expected our national debt not to go up by a couple dozen billion on top of the bailout? this isn't a cure-all bailout, it's merely formalising the terms

Speaking at a press conference in Government Buildings this morning, Green Party leader and Minister for the Environment John Gormley said his party would pull out of Government after the budget was passed. He said it was now up to the Taoiseach to set the date for the poll.

backstabbing on-the-fence carte-blanche. fantastically fucked combination of action/message/result here.

ps- thoughts on rte pulling the live feed last night?

Would it make political sense for Gilmore/Kenny to allow FF introduce a harsh budget and thus avoid some of the fallout for the cuts that will inevitably be made?

Bunch of TRATIORS.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/0003f20c-640.jpg

it makes no sense for gilmore or kenny to allow a budget through tht they will be blamed for anyway. The irish political psyche does not allow for consideration beyond 'this is happening now'

regarding cowen being given the power to negotiate a bank bailout and a four year budget as a going away present, i pretty much agree with most of what fintan o'toole says.

though i'v e not heard it in any other media yet- tbf i've been away from radio etc all day- has anyone heard anything to the tune of 'ff shouldn't be allowed to do this before they go'? are people not wise to the 'it's in the national interest' line by now?

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg840/scaled.php?tn=0&server=840&filename=1u6d.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

again, pointless and diversionary from the media.

as far as i know, nobody as referred to either cowen or lenihan as 'liars' yet in a headline nor in any article.

http://bocktherobber.com/2010/11/reinventing-ireland

'those who can pay more, will pay more'

Mr cowen.

Eh, how? Where? No change to the beloved corp tax, cuts to far exceed taxes.

Dreams of the tax reforms needed fading rapidly.

Public sector pensions hit, but not unfairly imo. That likely tax hikes will include us disproportionately as opposed to high earners, well, speaks for itself.

No sign of any type of move towards taxing wealth/assets. The money made during the celtic tiger really did vanish, huh

tbh im more pissed off abt stuff like the school i went to having more prefabs than classrooms and almost no playground left. they wanted an extension when i started there abt 20 years ago and they still dont have funding. the population has like quadrupled since then. when i think about how that money got wasted when we had it. sure we have better roads, but we wasted all our money on ugly vacant commercial premises and now we.ll never have any money again.

ppl can be angry all they want abt the shifty deregulation and neoliberalism. but while ff can claim to have had the wool pulled over their eyes, they cant really claim to have invested in good infrastructure.

seems like it would have slowed the rate of growth and provided more sustainable employment in building?

like sure, shudawudacuda tho

like i guess limk was a good vantage point for this, a large prop. of ppl employed in building, a decaying urban centre. result a ton of expensive developments that nobody was moving into. felt like the admin. solution to the increasing donutification was to build more in the hope of attracting businesses, in the hope of attracting ppl back in. but the city is so unattractively empty nobody wasever gonna move in