2008 Primaries Thread 3: The Rejecting and Denouncening

as in condoleezza?

no

i'm sick

i think the most interesting thing about bitterflap is what it possibly says about obama's political instincts, or lack of them. leave aside the he-thought-it-was-a-private-setting excuse, because political instincts should tell you there are no such things. he was apparently responding to a question about why he was having trouble connecting in smalltowns. all you have to say in that setting is, "we ARE connecting. we're going out there every day, we're talking to people about their lives and their hopes and their frustrations with this george bush economy, and the ways we can all work together. we are on the ground and we are signing up new volunteers every day." even if it's not true. who cares? instead he goes off on an extemporaneous, sub-tom-frank riff, which was not at all necessary to the situation. that's a lack of focus.

this is the first week since november 2006 that i've thought a republican might win this election.

1. In-laws resigned to moving to Scotland because either Obama or Hillary will win and it's going to suck. You think it's too soon to start printing, "Don't blame me, I voted for Huccabee!" bumper stickers?

Yes, escape the Liberal nightmare by moving to the most leftwing nation in a secular country with socialised medicine and gun-control.

i think the most interesting thing about bitterflap is...

I find it endlessly interesting that no matter how much McCain and Clinton try to convince anyone who will listen that what he said was an elitist utterance, and that news coverage on every network which does the same, seem to be shouting at a wall. Nobody seems to care.

I'm still of the opinion that anybody who thinks mccain could take 2008 is even more resolutely bitter about the world than I am

johnny fever otm, nobody gives a shit. most people still don't even understand what in the world the whole mess is even about without two or three explanations, and then they're still confused, especially as to why it's such a big deal at all

Surely all those small town folks who cling to guns and religion were never in a million years going to vote for Obama anyway. And won't vote for Hillary in the GE either.

by the time we get to november I doubt many people who can understand spoken english are going to bother to show up for Walnuts

(or comprehend translated closed captioning/ASL for that matter)

i spoke with my dad last night about bittergate and he basically feels the way i do, but he said something i haven't seen expressed on this thread yet, nor on the news:

obama wasn't talking TO pennsylvanians, he was talking ABOUT them, in SAN FRAN FUCKING CISCO

my dad believes strongly that if obama had made that speech about guns and religion directly to the people he was talking about, there would be disagreements but a basic level of respect -- instead, he was talking about them, behind their backs essentially

No, actually that's all over Fox, also when he's raised it at what are admittedly his own events in the states under discussion, it becomes part of the dialogue. Fox viewing figures are actually down on previous election cycles I think?

I'm talking to my mom later today, let's see what a working American with a sometime weakness for blaming economic and social problems on the Other and/or tossing the GOP a vote has to say, for other-end-of-spectrum litmus.

haha yeah how did i imagine fox news wouldn't be hammering on the san francisco thing 24/7

My mom always has something to say about these campaign trail memes, which is if the candidate can't quickly repudiate something manufactured by the opponent, it 'becomes true'.

re Fox on SF: nothing like watching a bunch of homosocial ex-fratholes and their liberated-by-poledancing female counterparts go all handbagger about people who drink just as much Starbucks as they do. I'm always amazed by how men like that manage to be all chubby and shrill; the women just suck. Fox are also gunning for Obama because he disparages them specifically. This seemingly extended campaign is actually a huge ratings winner for cable news networks; so as long as they can drum up conflict YAY viewers. The one with the falling ratings is always going to claw hardest but it's diminishing returns. Besides, Murdoch's kiddies seem to be v. interested in Obama so, who knows?

Hillary ad did not choose well from its pool of supporters in casting; any advertising fule knows real fat whiney mumbly people sell no product, be it HRC or cosmetics or food or whatever.

I hope it doesn't all go down in flames on account of one misstatement. I have just been through a similar experience and I have so much sympathy now.

I have just been through a similar experience and I have so much sympathy now.

what now?

The consensus seemed to be that Obama was inching up on Hillary to the point where he might win PA rather than just holding an overall poll lead nationwide amongst Dems. She has thus managed to move the goalposts from 'decisive victory' to 'any win' needed in that state to stay in and people, not media, are kind of sick of it.

Nobody watching this campaign, other than GOP bloggers and cut'n'paste commenters, thinks Barack Obama is anything other than a nice man who had trouble explaining group B to a member of group A who had, in all fairness, asked him what to do, so a desperate Hillary and a lazy McCain hit it.

In the GE whatever Hillary has said against Obama could be mitigated by 'it didn't actually work, so why do you think it will work NOW you doddering douche?'

her whole thing now is that obama can't win - how frustrating for her that the polls don't seem to agree

all you have to say in that setting is, "we ARE connecting. we're going out there every day, we're talking to people about their lives and their hopes and their frustrations with this george bush economy, and the ways we can all work together. we are on the ground and we are signing up new volunteers every day." even if it's not true. who cares?

well, but part of the reason people get fired up about Obama is that he doesn't do this. It's really annoying & frustrating - and also rather condescending, in that it treats ones listeners like children - to say "we ARE connecting!" when the question concerns the people with whom you're not connecting. So people are kinda stoked to hear a guy speak who doesn't just resort to the script. Now, it can be argued, I think persuasively, that Obama is in fact sticking to a script & that it's just not the one everybody else has been leaning on since mmmm '80 maybe. But the point is, it's not the "everybody loves me, because they share my vision for blah blah blah" script that even the dumbest person alive can see through.

^ this

http://i26.tinypic.com/21r30w.jpg

Hahahahaha way to go, Bill. Can someone PS lobster claws please?

GOP standard practice seems to be to try to pin the most preposterous elision onto opponents safe in the knowledge that Dems will spend half a day simultaneously in shock re bullshit and thinking their guy maybe swallowed Kryptonite. It's nice that in this case, the candidate seems to be able to respond himself within about an hour, get some standing ovation for doing so and then opponents look childish/whiney/maybe more condescending than the thing they decry.

Man alive Bill looks terrible there.

http://i27.tinypic.com/xt30h.jpg

can we hear a scream?!?

http://img01.picoodle.com/img/img01/4/4/16/f_negativem_01b6f2b.jpg

o_O

opponents look childish/whiney/maybe more condescending than the thing they decry

yes, obama has made some rookie mistakes - and i hope he doesn't make too many more - but he has been unbelievably canny about answering back in a way that shows up "the cult of the offhand comment" crowd for the whiny shit-stirrers that they are

Which also allows people trawling for news the breathing room to see that taken in context, Obama's opponents clearly guilty of OVERPARSE.

j-ho, damn that's good, I cannot believe you didn't post the original in 'red in tooth and claw' mode in the first place...

So people are kinda stoked to hear a guy speak who doesn't just resort to the script. Now, it can be argued, I think persuasively, that Obama is in fact sticking to a script & that it's just not the one everybody else has been leaning on since mmmm '80 maybe. But the point is, it's not the "everybody loves me, because they share my vision for blah blah blah" script that even the dumbest person alive can see through.

i agree that that's a big part of obama's appeal, but there are times and places. sometimes boilerplate is all you need. you have to know which strategy you're pursuing at any given time. obama has basically been in run-out-the-clock mode for a month. it's a long time to stay focused, i know, but the key to running out the clock is not making unnecessary errors (turnovers, fumbles, sports analogy of your choice). granted, the likelihood of an offhand comment at a closed-door fundraiser becoming a big deal is small, but it's a possibility that a smart and focused campaigner should be aware of. you don't get to make too many of those mistakes before it hurts you.

i've been impressed by obama as a tactical politician, on the whole -- i agree he's been good about responding quickly. but this kind of stuff shows some real weaknesses, especially in regard to the media. yes, stuff like "he can't bowl!" and "he didn't order coffee!" are bullshit with no staying power, but to anyone paying attention they should signal a media narrative taking shape. bitterflap played right into that narrative just as it was starting to congeal. and the gore and kerry experiences should show you that narratives can get set pretty early in a campaign, and can be stubbornly hard to shake. and complaining about (or just rationally noting) the absurdity and unfairness of the narrative is not a proven strategy for winning an election.

i still think odds are long for a republican win this year, but they are shorter than they should be.

once mccain starts getting asked serious questions it's going to be over*

*this assumes he will ever be asked serious questions

http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/080416Dems1_jb5v9e2.gif

Ha?

oh snap

once mccain starts getting asked serious questions it's going to be over*

*this assumes he will ever be asked serious questions

well, right. i think al gore spent all of 2000 waiting for george bush to be asked serious quesions.

quesTions

and again, the bitter thing is less significant as a standalone event than as a potential cornerstone in a "elitist, out-of-touch obama" storyline. which doesn't have to be completely persuasive to be effective. in '04, the effect of the swift boat ads was not so much to make everybody believe that kerry was lying about his military service as to render the whole area murky and blunt its usefulness as a campaign theme for him. in obama's complicated case, the elitist thing, like the pastor thing, provides one more out for people looking for a reason not to vote for him -- and a relatively acceptable, mainstream one. you start with "he's a crazy muslim," move slightly centerward with "he's a black radical," and by the time you get to "he's an elitist" you have a handy codeword that stands in for all that other stuff but in a way that people who aren't comfortable calling him a muslim or a radical can get comfortable with. you can no longer say it's just coded racism, even though it partly is coded racism -- so you get the benefits of coded racism, while also picking up some people who aren't even looking for coded racist reasons to oppose him.

no one thing is the big killer blow, but this stuff accumulates, it doesn't really go away.

i think bob herbert lurks here

my guess is the real issue is even more plain and blunt: they don't like the black dude from the city as much as the white woman.

-- gff, Monday, April 14, 2008 2:33 PM (2 days ago)

There is no mystery here. Except for people who have been hiding in caves or living in denial, it’s pretty widely understood that a substantial number of those voters — in Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia and elsewhere — will not vote for a black candidate for president.

Pennsylvanians themselves will tell you that racial attitudes in some parts of the state are, to be kind, less than enlightened. Gov. Ed Rendell, Hillary Clinton’s most powerful advocate in the state, put it bluntly last February: “I think there are some whites who are probably not ready to vote for an African-American candidate.”

Some Perspective on ‘Bitter’

By BOB HERBERT
Published: April 15, 2008

herbert blowin minds again

Endorsement:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080416/ap_on_el_pr/obama_springsteen_1;_ylt=AsNTSairkgrRiMvWyMu.FGZh24cA

Since Perrin (born in Indiana, joined the army, lives in Michigan) doesn't write stuff like "Obama is right" often, I thought his Bitterflap post wd be worth a look:

If you have nothing save some hazy sense of patriotism, you sure as hell don't want to lose the only thing that feeds your identity. Politicians play on this need, catering to redneck biases under a phony "populist" banner while serving those who actually finance their careers. The negative reaction to Obama's rather tame comments shows just how strong this bullshit tactic is, though it appears that Obama will not be hurt by acknowledging reality. Still, I don't see a lot of white working people voting for Obama -- or for that matter, Hillary. John McCain is perfect for most of them, especially those who fly POW/MIA flags in their front yards or on their porches. The religion of militarism remains too intoxicating for many rednecks to resist. If they're not enlisted, they wear the camo-gear in solidarity. I see this every day. It's pretty fucking depressing....Bitter? Hell, that's the least of it.

just so they can be with us for another day:

http://i28.tinypic.com/2h2e13k.gif

im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter
im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter
im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter
im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter
im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter
im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter
im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter
im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter
im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter
im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter
im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter im not bitter

http://thepage.time.com/statement-from-bruce-springsteen/

THANX FOR YR SUPPORT BRRROOOCE BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS AMERICAN VOTERS LOVE IT WHEN CELEBS BESTOW ENDORSEMENTS ON LEFT-ISH DEM CANDIDATES

Clooney knows how to do it:

...in early 2006, he spoke about Darfur with Barack Obama. (“I love that guy, I love him,” Clooney said of Obama, but he has not publicly campaigned, for fear of doing damage; he felt that his father’s campaign for Congress was undermined by “Hollywood versus the Heartland” rhetoric.)

working-class guy from the Jersey Shore /= guy who grew up related to Jose Ferrer who's now the face of Hollywood. it might not help much but it doesn't come anywhere close to hurting.

can we vote for lobster clinton if he has less than 50% of the body he had when he was our human president? I cannot resist his enormous claws

L. Clinton/D. Butter '08

mmmmmmm

What does the D stand for?!?!?

delicious!!