Exactly it; the pro-life case (which I also have *some* gut empathy for, despite rather than because of the arguments and antics of actual pro-lifers, and alongside a feminist/political commitment to choice) depoliticises abortion by insisting that the right to life is a one-time moral choice existing in a vacuum outwith other socio- political issues. So why should abortion be the sole example of a stark yes/no moral stance in re human life? Presumably lots of us are able to believe that the deliberate taking of a human life is wrong whilst simultaneously engaging in multiple hedging maneouvres re self- defence, euthenasia, even war and various liberation causes. What is it about abortion that allows sympathy for pro-lifers' removal of this issue from its complex ethical and social context and the other choices and (quality of life) issues that might muddy up the ethical waters?
― Ellie, Tuesday, 5 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Pete, Tuesday, 5 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Queen G, Tuesday, 5 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Voting Yes changes the current position of the life of the mother being equal to the life of the unborn and makes it illegal for suicidal women in care to travel for an abortion.
Voting No maintains the present legal position, the right to life of the mother is equal to that of the unborn.
The reason we are having ANOTHER referendum on this matter is because the right to life of the unborn is enshrined within the Constitution, and can only be changed by public vote.
― naz, Wednesday, 6 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Yes 48.something No 51.something.
Meta question, isn't it bloody ridiculous Britain can have their election results by the end of the day nearly and yet it takes us longer with our 2.5mill electorate.
― Ronan, Thursday, 7 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Pete, Thursday, 7 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
In any event, I'm unclear as to how a very common pro-life POV, "abortion is only permissible in cases of rape, incest, or endangerment to the mother's health", engages in "removal of this issue from its complex ethical and social context"; to me, that stance would seem to acknowledge at least a measure of that context, and is no more indictable for said removal (i.e. its recourse to moral principle) than is veganism/animal rights advocacy or opposition to the death penalty. It's largely a question of whether you believe policy ought to refer to (moral) principle, or confine itself to social utility -- and in turn whether you believe that principle to be revealed or materially based.
― Phil, Saturday, 9 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
well i think we're handling this with the expected level of maturity and consideration
― banlieue jagger (darraghmac), Friday, 21 December 2012 03:25 (eleven years ago) link
Useful reading. I don't know everything about it but the thing in America is that 8th, 8th and 10th generation "Irish Americans" use this shit to support their nauseating anti-abortion stance. And unlike them I had an actual Irish grandparent who didn't agree with anti-abortion politics.
― โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka I Hate You For Sentimental Reasons (Mount Cleaners), Saturday, 22 December 2012 13:33 (eleven years ago) link
Draft legislation due
Debate on the issue isnt inspiring
― the norman wisdom of gaffers (darraghmac), Tuesday, 30 April 2013 21:47 (eleven years ago) link
nobody on primetime calling the language describing a foetus as a human life. this is a basic thing to pull ppl on if you want to regulate a debate on this stuff
― the norman wisdom of gaffers (darraghmac), Tuesday, 30 April 2013 21:56 (eleven years ago) link
fighty lady shouty psychiatrists on primetime is good, pro-legislation one is my new favourite irish person
― the norman wisdom of gaffers (darraghmac), Tuesday, 30 April 2013 22:31 (eleven years ago) link
damn, christian comment spokeswoman is ws of shame material
― the norman wisdom of gaffers (darraghmac), Tuesday, 30 April 2013 22:35 (eleven years ago) link
lol
― rather ugged man (zvookster), Tuesday, 30 April 2013 22:36 (eleven years ago) link
im so sorry but tbf im not sure that this hasn't occurred to the group at the same time
this debate is covering the ground nicely now, tbf, everyone is a p good advocate for their position, pro-choice side i obv found by far the more impressive
― the norman wisdom of gaffers (darraghmac), Tuesday, 30 April 2013 22:38 (eleven years ago) link
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/d%C3%A1il-vote-on-abortion-bill-carried-by-138-to-24-1.1450291
― dj hollingsworth vs dj perry (darraghmac), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 20:59 (ten years ago) link
creeping towards the 20th century
― for many people a really special folder makes a huge difference (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 21:06 (ten years ago) link
dirty immigrants gonna cause a no vote is the latest angle
Christ help us.
― thoughts you made second posts about (darraghmac), Sunday, 17 May 2015 20:21 (nine years ago) link
if they're dirty surely they'll be in favour
― eremitic brid (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 17 May 2015 20:24 (nine years ago) link
Gays vs Immigrants - FITE!
― tayto fan (Michael B), Sunday, 17 May 2015 22:30 (nine years ago) link
It's cominggggg
― quet inn tarnation (darraghmac), Sunday, 25 June 2017 23:49 (six years ago) link
100k marching in dublin today against repeal of the 8th
they can all fit into a space that under normal circumstances cant have more than 17k
and half of them are kids and grandkids
its no wonder a few loaves and fish feed a crowd if thats how they count
― the clodding of the american mind (darraghmac), Saturday, 10 March 2018 16:38 (six years ago) link
good luck éire
― I’m 16 and a member of UKIP’s youth wing, young independence (bizarro gazzara), Saturday, 10 March 2018 17:38 (six years ago) link
oooof
― the clodding of the american mind (darraghmac), Saturday, 10 March 2018 17:43 (six years ago) link
scenes on boards.ie thread
plants pictured holding v inflammatory banners at previous pro-choice events (one saying 'abort sick children' or somesuch, another hoisting the logo of a british fascist org) have been spotted and identified as stewards for today's pro-life events
xp feires feire
― the clodding of the american mind (darraghmac), Saturday, 10 March 2018 17:46 (six years ago) link
Omg link the thread please darragh? I haven’t been on boards in years and find it incomprehensible now.
Wonder how many of the marchers were American? Did you see that mess with the pro-life activist running the @ireland account?
― gyac, Saturday, 10 March 2018 18:06 (six years ago) link
save u going to boards heres the tweet for first
twitter.com/SPE32/status/972512845232508930?s=19
― the clodding of the american mind (darraghmac), Saturday, 10 March 2018 18:19 (six years ago) link
cannot seem to link tweets properly soz
and second
https://m.facebook.com/SolidarityTimes/photos/a.341910489331727.1073741828.341899462666163/780496845473087/?type=3&theater
― the clodding of the american mind (darraghmac), Saturday, 10 March 2018 18:20 (six years ago) link
on that latter i might have confused that hes not a steward today but was def a plant at a womans day march prev
not sure if firm link other than cointelpro tactics
srsly tho these lunatics
― the clodding of the american mind (darraghmac), Saturday, 10 March 2018 18:22 (six years ago) link
Thank you! Will check those out now. Was reading the times article on this and just making a face at this:
“Ten weeks to ensure that the best of Irish people vote No to abortion,” she said. “Stand in the gap against the media and the international elites who think they could browbeat and bribe the Irish people into accepting the unacceptable, the killing of our own children,
― gyac, Saturday, 10 March 2018 18:23 (six years ago) link
the abortion industry sin é an rud nua now, abortion industry
id feel like saying "but we could use the jobs nach bfhuil ha?" but believe it or not im not actually a troll
― the clodding of the american mind (darraghmac), Saturday, 10 March 2018 18:26 (six years ago) link
Yeah totally unsurprised by the conclusion drawn by the Facebook page, it’s alluded to in the speech I partially quoted from above.
― gyac, Saturday, 10 March 2018 18:29 (six years ago) link
xp I mean...
i am getting the feeling its going to be tighter than coverage might have you think
on the likes of boards the presence and amount of obvious bots is getting more and more prevalent and its v unsettling
― the clodding of the american mind (darraghmac), Saturday, 10 March 2018 18:32 (six years ago) link
Are the Archbishoprics running bot campaigns now
― valorous wokelord (silby), Saturday, 10 March 2018 18:33 (six years ago) link
xxp I never expected a walkover. In my lifetime, I couldn’t even foresee it passing. But the amount of people I know voting to repeal has me heartened. There are a lot of ordinary women coming forward and speaking up on things like the In Her Shoes - Women of the Eight page.
Re: the attendance padding:
Some may mock, but that's only because they can't see that everyone on the march is surrounded by several angels. (Unfortunately none of the angels are eligible to vote in the referendum)— Ray (@ray_cun) March 10, 2018
― gyac, Saturday, 10 March 2018 18:37 (six years ago) link
fact
a lot of attendees are children
was thinking today about the split being one side raised to their strong opinion and the other arriving at it, whether that was fair, how true it was, what did it suggest, did it matter
then i made a pretty good apple pie
i think repeal will pass.
― the clodding of the american mind (darraghmac), Saturday, 10 March 2018 19:15 (six years ago) link
A lot of attendees aren’t citizens either, I’d go so far to say.
Arriving at it? Hmmm, I don’t know. I have always been strongly pro-choice as far as I can remember - I’d go so far as to say that it’s the single issue closest to my heart in terms of politics at home. But then I was growing up reading about the X case and the C case...
It’s not the way that people arrive at their opinion that matters; it’s the issue itself. Gay marriage was a simple and positive campaign comparatively - who is against love? Abortion isn’t quite so straightforward and it’s not something you can make a soft focus, media friendly case for. It’s a lot of grey where the anti choice side operates in strict black and white.
― gyac, Saturday, 10 March 2018 19:39 (six years ago) link
agreed
i think upthread there's discussion on how in ireland its not strictly a liberal/conservative divide (as they fall along normal lines) in that you might be surprised how a person feels about it
im not sure if that still holds true but i suspect ive a few people i kniw quite well who would be against repeal. i dont think i met anyone except my father in law who was eh out as against marriage ref
― the clodding of the american mind (darraghmac), Saturday, 10 March 2018 19:43 (six years ago) link
I’d agree with that. Though I’ve been surprised by the number of people I know in favour - and even more so by the numbers vocally in favour. Especially as doing so will earn you the full attention of YD and the rest.
― gyac, Saturday, 10 March 2018 19:48 (six years ago) link
....
we may or may not have yd in the office I'll be damned if i poke the bear if she doesnt
― the clodding of the american mind (darraghmac), Saturday, 10 March 2018 19:59 (six years ago) link
google noel pattern, noel patrun, nollaig o patrun for more of this malarkey
― the clodding of the american mind (darraghmac), Tuesday, 13 March 2018 13:32 (six years ago) link
this is gonna be ugly stupid close
the tactics and behaviour and contempt for decency of the large no fringe is ... maddening, shocking, idk
― laurel or hardyhearin (darraghmac), Wednesday, 23 May 2018 17:29 (six years ago) link
LG's first post in this thread reveals a family connection
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 23 May 2018 17:57 (six years ago) link
update your former ilxor .xls accordingly
It’s vmic for anti choice campaigning the world over. I’m not surprised by them. I was surprised by, for example, Farmers for Yes and “It upsets me to think of somebody’s daughter afraid, alone, unsafe, taking medication that they smuggled into the country. Afraid of breaking the law. Afraid to seek help. We can do better. We need to do better. We need to care for our women at home in Ireland.”
I’ve been desperately trying not to follow the coverage* too closely because it is important to me that it pass and I don’t want to get too involved. I’m still on the register and get a polling card delivered to my parents’ house, but of course I can’t use it.
Today was the first time I looked at the polling and yeah it’s close but it’s going to depend on turnout.
I am sure you’ve seen the thread by Paula on @ireland last week but for anyone who hasn’t, this is desperately sad and honest and is exactly why this amendment needs to go:
Ok I’m going to share a story with you regarding a crisis pregnancy I had many years ago, I have previously shared this story on my own account but think it might be good to revisit it. I was 15 when I became pregnant, 15 when I gave birth too. My eldest is now 27 #togetherforyes— Ireland / REFCOM (@ireland) May 18, 2018
*except In Her Shoes - Women of the Eighth. I can’t get over how brave those people are for telling their stories.
― gyac, Wednesday, 23 May 2018 17:59 (six years ago) link
otm to the stories and otm to avoid most coverage
― laurel or hardyhearin (darraghmac), Wednesday, 23 May 2018 18:09 (six years ago) link
fb have an "abroad for yes" page where theyre matching donors to people who cant afford to get home to vote under their own resources
#hometovote is worth following
feeling hopeful
― laurel or hardyhearin (darraghmac), Thursday, 24 May 2018 15:33 (six years ago) link
high turnout reported
which is good, very good indeed
― laurel or hardyhearin (darraghmac), Friday, 25 May 2018 11:36 (six years ago) link
and what can be said in public has been changed.>That is to say that several people have said during the campaign that it is only now possible to talk about abortion in public and actually refer to it as that.
& that the one thing the referendum has achieved without further legislative work is that the amendment which prevented any change has now been lifted which is a stage before actual change. & now the more conservative elements of the dail can try to delay any actual change from happening by keeping legislation being argued over as long as possible.
― Stevolende, Monday, 28 May 2018 22:54 (six years ago) link
What do your sources think happened to people who said the word in public?
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 09:08 (six years ago) link
(This could have gone in the bad Guardian thread, but really there should be a collected bad take repository!)
Laurie Penny published a now locked piece about the referendum, it sounds like an absolute car crash. Irish twitter users have been queuing up to critique it. So much cringe. She actually used her own Irish background to deflect from the fact that she doesn’t know the difference between the Taoiseach and the Dáil!
This thread captures the worst of it:
I wrote a lot of stuff on my IG story about how bad I think this Laurie Penny article (https://t.co/4cPGQK2DKE) is, then remembered Twitter is meant to be the one for opinions.so:— thot experiment (@NaoiseDolan) May 28, 2018
― gyac, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 11:00 (six years ago) link
In fairness, Laurie is pretty aware that she's fucked up:
https://twitter.com/PennyRed
She actually used her own Irish background to deflect from the fact that she doesn’t know the difference between the Taoiseach and the Dáil!
That is not something she did, no.
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 11:12 (six years ago) link
Yes, anyone can go on her timeline and see shite like this:
Because I’ve learned to my cost that there are some people for whom only deleting my whole account and never writing anything again would ever be enough.— Laurie Penny (@PennyRed) May 29, 2018
Although I did ungenerously misrepresent the point, so yes, you’re right on that. Can’t imagine what made me view her so ungenerously!
― gyac, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 11:21 (six years ago) link
Yeah, that is an unfortunate feature of her writing these days - to be honest any idea that starts with "I was hanging around with Amanda Palmer and she said" is unlikely to go anywhere good.
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 12:03 (six years ago) link
I'm actually in awe of her ability to make herself the story time and time again. Tone deaf cultural insensivity followed by frantic backtracking and apologies is kinda her MO at this point.
― Matt DC, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 15:19 (six years ago) link
'Laurie Penny becoming the story' is something that's only happened because dozens of people have a weird obsession with her and have chosen to tweet about how bad this article is, though? It's weird to see so many people tweeting complaints that's she crowding out more informed/relevant voices given that most of us probably wouldn't even know that the LP piece existed if it weren't for those same tweets
― soref, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 15:34 (six years ago) link
that sounds like a pretty woolly defence tbh
havent read the piece whatre the objections
― laurel or hardyhearin (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 May 2018 15:35 (six years ago) link
Marie Le Conte had the point earlier that there's definitely a case to be made for Patreon, but if you're using it to free yourself from the clutches of copy editors and fact checkers, maybe don't.
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 15:36 (six years ago) link
On one level I feel almost bad for her because she’s not the first British person with a catastrophically bad take.
On the other, the kind of inaccurate shite she’s peddling isn’t any less patronising coming from someone who’s supposedly on the side of the progressives.
And as Naoise Dolan so cuttingly put it:https://twitter.com/naoisedolan/status/10016084485539676
It would be nice if British media didn’t feel the need to explain stuff through the voices of people not familiar with the country. Someone else in the thread pointed out that even emigrants had to tread lightly which I thought was interesting and accurate - I can comment on the culture but I don’t live there anymore and the country feels different every time I go back!
― gyac, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 15:41 (six years ago) link
I feel it is slightly rich to expect Ireland to be this familiar with the Work of someone who was not herself familiar with the difference between Taoiseach and Dáil. https://t.co/kYU3Vxay6W— thot experiment (@NaoiseDolan) May 29, 2018
What is her Irish background anyway?
― Poisoned by Johan's pea soup. (Tom D.), Wednesday, 30 May 2018 15:43 (six years ago) link
big father ted fan iirc
― i am fast and full of teeth. i willl die in a barn fire (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 30 May 2018 15:46 (six years ago) link
'Laurie Penny becoming the story' is something that's only happened because dozens of people have a weird obsession with her
FWIW this happens to most female journalists especially young, left-wing feminist writers. LP's just especially blunder-prone, even though her heart's in the right place. To be fair this irritates me a lot less now that she's no longer the automatic go-to voice for lazy commissioning editors.
― Matt DC, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 16:08 (six years ago) link
LP's writing is 1/3 "yeah, this is my view, good article" 1/3 "this is my view but I'm uncomfortable with you in my corner because this isn't the best take on it" and 1/3 "oh god no wtf" for me
condolences to the people of ireland on this one falling in that latter 2/3rds I guess
― (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ (mh), Wednesday, 30 May 2018 16:37 (six years ago) link
I did enjoy this post, clearly written by someone seething in about five minutes, that addresses how bad general British coverage of Ireland is.
https://www.joe.ie/amp/politics/10-rules-british-journalists-covering-irish-627662
― gyac, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 16:51 (six years ago) link
Doing a good job conflating British with English there though that's what we expect from the Irish.
― Poisoned by Johan's pea soup. (Tom D.), Wednesday, 30 May 2018 16:57 (six years ago) link
It does never cease to amaze me how little English people know about Ireland. Its right there! I always get asked if I'm from "southern Ireland." I had never heard this expression before I lived here! At first I was confused. I'm from the west! I know this seems petty, but in the aftermath of the EU referendum I went around lecturing people about the effect on the good friday agreement, until I realised that I was telling most people about the existence of the good friday agreement.
― plax (ico), Wednesday, 30 May 2018 17:55 (six years ago) link
"and which part had the war?"
― plax (ico), Wednesday, 30 May 2018 17:56 (six years ago) link
xxxp MLC actually mentioned commissioning editors in her list of things that Patreon deprives us of, but that's a good thing, I reckon. For perspective, I'm sure that we can all agree that anything that happened with Laurie is nothing compared with the fact that John Waters, the Raffles of oxygen, has been getting regular work all the way through this.
https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/05/ireland-an-obituary
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 19:24 (six years ago) link
the Raffles of oxygen
vg
― capybaras are friend shaped (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 30 May 2018 19:30 (six years ago) link
most english ppl don't know much abt england either
― ogmor, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 20:28 (six years ago) link
there's a really distinctive lack of curiosity its true. I also recently explained to somebody (from brighton) where east anglia is.
― plax (ico), Wednesday, 30 May 2018 20:43 (six years ago) link
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2009%2F03%2F03%2Farticle-1154159-067F4A5C0000044D-724_233x356.jpg&f=1
― capybaras are friend shaped (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 30 May 2018 21:21 (six years ago) link
people whose mind is blown by the existence of "Dún Laoghaire" and think it's some sort of niche reference that only Ireland experts will get
― A Box of After Dinner Comics Shipped to Your House Each Month (seandalai), Wednesday, 30 May 2018 23:38 (six years ago) link
passed and off to himself for signing
― Moussa- ppl gon die (darraghmac), Thursday, 13 December 2018 22:46 (five years ago) link
I saw this and haven’t really followed, are they still planning to charge €300 for the procedure?
Twitter moments categorised Savita’s death as “Indian woman who died in Ireland” and it made my eye twitch, so here are my favourite pictures of the Savita mural back in May:
The scene at Savita’s mural in Dublin’s Portobello as polls closed in Ireland’s abortion referendum pic.twitter.com/VAbVPSpCgi— Rita O'Reilly (@RitaOReilly) May 25, 2018
The Savita mural in Dublin right now @rtenews pic.twitter.com/cbE2z9nnHl— Samantha Libreri (@SamanthaLibreri) May 26, 2018
Flowers and messages left at a mural for Savita Halappanavar, who died in 2012 after she was refused an abortion pic.twitter.com/eXGqN7vOoq— Eleanor Barlow (@EleanorBarlow) May 26, 2018
Flowers and tributes were left at the Dublin mural of Savita Halappanavar, who died in 2012 in an Irish hospital after she was denied an abortion while suffering the complications of a septic miscarriage. “I’m so sorry. My vote was for you,” one note reads. #8thRef pic.twitter.com/b5DRnfZFs9— Sinéad Baker (@sineadbaker1) May 26, 2018
― gyac, Friday, 14 December 2018 15:42 (five years ago) link
</3
― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Friday, 14 December 2018 15:59 (five years ago) link
idk gyac about the charges but id imagine not, possibly that was a reporting of some of the amendments that the religious td/senator crowd were tryinf to have implemented while it went through oireachtas
stress im not sure on that tho
― Moussa- ppl gon die (darraghmac), Friday, 14 December 2018 16:05 (five years ago) link
I guess we can crowd fund a um, fund for people who need abortions?
― Leaghaidh am brón an t-anam bochd (dowd), Friday, 14 December 2018 21:17 (five years ago) link