some of us are suckers, the rest are just drunks
― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 09:33 (fifteen years ago) link
this INTERNET COMPANY, it is called GOOGLE, and some other COMPUTER COMPANIES, they go by APPLE and MICROSOFT, they kind of RUN THE WORLD, and that would be because our government was so fucking behind the times
uh except for the fact that without the u.s. government passing a little something called the high performance computing and communication act of 1991 which led to tiny little things like ncsa mosaic and vastly accelerating broadband penetration, google would be an archive of gopher sites
― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 10:39 (fifteen years ago) link
jezus TOMBOT did you booze all night? I quit at midnight.
that's why romney, bush et al have no interest in trying to sustain the ailing detroit model -- not because they want to replace it with something better, but because they don't want to replace it, period. no social contract, no unions, no health care, no nothing. they don't want g.m. to reinvent itself if it's still going to have the uaw in tow.
This is a dodge. There's no evidence that sustaining the ailing model will do anything but waste money. There's a large amount of evidence that this ailing model--one that has ailed for decades--is unfixable. "Social contract"? What exactly is that? The federal government owes us a "social contract"?
The fact that the UAW is in tow with a collapsed industry is mere icing on the cake for the GOP and the Grover Norquists of the world. The facts are that massive government intervention isn't going to radically revitalize the American auto industry. The facts are that nothing can do that.
― Dandy Don Weiner, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 12:45 (fifteen years ago) link
hay whoa dandy dons got the facts everyone step back
― ice cr?m, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 12:47 (fifteen years ago) link
And if the Dems wanna truly help the UAW, they can troll around billions of dollars in aid to people who lose their jobs. The UAW is going to fail with the American auto industry, and it's time for progressives to actually think progressively on the end game here.
― Dandy Don Weiner, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 12:47 (fifteen years ago) link
let american entrepreneurship take its fucking course.
as if "american entrepreneurship" exists in some separate realm from "government influence." corporations are chartered by the government, and major industries -- especially the auto industry -- operate within the context of american industrial policy. when auto companies were successful, it was always with government assistance of one kind or another. (killing mass transportation, subsidizing an auto-dependent lifestyle, ensuring abundant supplies of cheap fuel, etc.) after wwii, the government essentially subcontracted chunks of the social contract to the private sector. it was always a dubious bargain, but now it's pretty much nonfunctional. (that's what we're at the "end game" of.) the right-wing position is pretty clear: like dandy don says, what fucking social contract? nobody on the left, or at least nobody in the political mainstream, is fantasizing about 'uaw contracts for all!' the question is how the terms are redefined, who gets to be at the table, and what drives the debate.
the bridge loans detroit wants are a short-term patch, no matter what they accomplish or don't. that's really all this skirmish is about, trying to set the table for the fights that are going to come over how to expand/broaden the safety net (for the glorious FUTURE, which is going to require safety nets you bet) and restructure the expectations of the employer-employee relationship, and employer-government relationship. republicans would prefer that debate to happen in the context of a bankrupt g.m. and eviscerated uaw. democrats (at least some of them) would prefer it not.
― tipsy mothra, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 14:43 (fifteen years ago) link
I would gladly fuck over millions of american workers if it meant that their children, your children, and my prospective offspring would grow up understanding the difference between operating a sustainable, well-run enterprise versus a huge batch of cloudy incompetence masquerading as industry.
sending these children into poverty doesn't seem like such a good idea to "make a point"
― akm, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 15:28 (fifteen years ago) link
Oh no it totally is.
― Nicolars (Nicole), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 15:31 (fifteen years ago) link
All must be reminded of the laws of the jungle.
― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 15:54 (fifteen years ago) link
Well, not all.
― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 15:58 (fifteen years ago) link
Just enough to know their place.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 15:58 (fifteen years ago) link
> profit sharing or stock grants to all employees
Holy shit, did Mitt Romney just endorse the proletariat owning the means of production?
― UEK - Big Tempin' (Oilyrags), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 16:34 (fifteen years ago) link
In context, it looks like he may be endorsing it in exchange for more traditional benefits. (I'm thinking of my dad's company offering decent pension plans to employees when he was hired 20 years ago, and giving stock options to its new employees instead.)
― Maria, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 16:39 (fifteen years ago) link
Fuck this guy:
http://clusterstock.alleyinsider.com/2008/11/michigan-congressman-taxpayer-money-isn-t-really-their-money-video-
― Dandy Don Weiner, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 17:46 (fifteen years ago) link
Here's an idea, lend me the $25bn, let me by the volt from chevvy, the Aptera from Google.org and I'll build an american car company that is actually worth something.
Seriously though. Rather than propping up these ageing Behemoths put $25bn into providing cheap capital for people trying to set up engineering businesses to make use of the vast banks of skills in Ohio and Michigan and all the other affected states. Let's have these skilled people build the renewable power infrastructure and sustainable transport infrastructure that the World needs rather than SUVs that no one wants.
― Ed, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 17:50 (fifteen years ago) link
Dude didn't you hear Bush's 2001 State of the Union, it's hydrogen cars for everyone
― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 17:52 (fifteen years ago) link
Ed, good luck with that. See: Tesla Motors. Their best shot is to license their technology to a major player. Without massive economies of scale, purchasing leverage, and platform sharing, your company that's actually worth something couldn't bring a Honda Civic to market for under $50K sticker. At which price the American consumer would promptly throw up all over it even if you could steal 40 years of brand equity and call it a Honda Civic. Sorry.
Tracer, I hope to god Bush is right. Especially in growing auto markets where the petroleum infrastructure isn't already massively built out (India, China) it could really be a godsend.
The infrastructure's the biggest challenge at this point. I assume you know that hydrogen cars are already on the road in SoCal: http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/
― Passenger 57 (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:05 (fifteen years ago) link
Tracer, I hope to god Bush is right.
uh-oh!
― ice cr?m, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:09 (fifteen years ago) link
blind squirrels and nuts and all that
― Passenger 57 (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:15 (fifteen years ago) link
I don't really have anything to add here other than the sinking suspicion that our country's collapse is inevitable and we should be planning on how we are going to bounce out of the wreckage rather than hopelessly trying to stop it. Fucked if I know how to make that bounce, though.
― Black Seinfeld (HI DERE), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:25 (fifteen years ago) link
Start by rolling back interest rates, which will inflate prices in the housing sector. Americans will be able to borrow against their rising home equity at advantageous rates, and the perception of growing wealth will encourage them to spend, spend, spend. That should give the ol' economy a nice kick in the pants!
― Passenger 57 (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:30 (fifteen years ago) link
http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=522edbf93c4b8c93_landing
― Kerm, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:31 (fifteen years ago) link
I really hope you're joking
― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:32 (fifteen years ago) link
you could start by not raping this generation of american workers, who are already under record amounts of individual debt, for the sake of their parents' retirement.
Fuck a poorly run company, fuck a union that works pretty much exclusively for a poorly run company, and fuck states that thrive off poorly run companies.
http://www.hbo.com/thewire/img/episodeguide/season01/ep05_omar_walk_street.jpg
― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:35 (fifteen years ago) link
xpost to dan re "how to make bouncie?"
One nationUnder GodIndivisibleWith liberty and justice for all
― Black Seinfeld (HI DERE), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:36 (fifteen years ago) link
> Start by rolling back interest rates, which will inflate prices in the housing sector. Americans will be able to borrow against their rising home equity at advantageous rates, and the perception of growing wealth will encourage them to spend, spend, spend. That should give the ol' economy a nice kick in the pants!
― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, November 19, 2008 12:32 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
I lolled.
― UEK - Big Tempin' (Oilyrags), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:38 (fifteen years ago) link
you know what is amazing? the new york subway system is FUCKED. they may close the W line. they're going to halve the G line. they're going to reduce the number of trains between 2am and 5am. they're closing hundreds of booths and laying off hundreds of attendants. this is after more than a decade of unprecedented growth in the financial capital of the world. and THE STATIONS STILL LOOK AND SMELL LIKE SEWERS.
― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:38 (fifteen years ago) link
oh no we'll definitely send millions of our boys to get murdered to keep that indivisible bit, even if the chunk that's trying to leave is the poorly-run-enterprise chunk
― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:38 (fifteen years ago) link
it just seems like the old "fix the roof when the sun is shining" thing never really caught on in the old usa
― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:39 (fifteen years ago) link
I'm sympathetic to the idea Tombot expresses - though I'd put it more in terms of not screwing future generations of taxpayers who are going to have to pay off the deficits that we are running up today. I think the idea that you don't worry about deficits when you're in a recession is nice and all, but I think we've used up our credibility in that area by continuing to run up deficits in good times and bad over the past 8 years. I wish I could be more confident that we'll get serious about the deficit (including the looming entitlement deficit) once the economy turns around.
― o. nate, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:39 (fifteen years ago) link
tracer come on man sewers don't have little laser-printed signs taped up everywhere telling you that THIS LETTER OF THE ALPHABET WILL ACT LIKE THIS OTHER LETTER OF THE ALPHABET FOR THE NEXT THREE DAYS EXCEPT AT NIGHT
― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:39 (fifteen years ago) link
that is a good point.
― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:42 (fifteen years ago) link
THX 4 YR CONCERN LONDON AND DC DUDES
― ice cr?m, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:43 (fifteen years ago) link
btw tombot u know why the trains are always getting rerouted - it is because they run 24/7 and need to be worked on some time - also you dont have to swipe on the way out
― ice cr?m, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:44 (fifteen years ago) link
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/eb/If_you_don
― Passenger 57 (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:44 (fifteen years ago) link
you guys, they spend lots of money getting that just-pissed-on look and feel down pat, show some appreciation
― Black Seinfeld (HI DERE), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:44 (fifteen years ago) link
u are allowed to at while u ride and none of them are the green line
― ice cr?m, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:45 (fifteen years ago) link
i've seen moss in the nyc subway. MOSS.
― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:45 (fifteen years ago) link
eat while u ride
now wait a minute, what?
― Kerm, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:46 (fifteen years ago) link
all this shit could have been avoided with a congestion charge.
there are some billboards promoting the c-charge still up in east new york, it's pretty sad
― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:47 (fifteen years ago) link
Of course it's not enough money non-shockahhttp://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/bailout-funds-for-gm-may-fall-short-analyst-says/
― Dandy Don Weiner, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:47 (fifteen years ago) link
Haha I am not making any type of argument for the supremacy of Boston public transit! I would gladly trade up to "just-pissed-on" from "just-pissed-puked-shat-and-menstruated-on".
― Black Seinfeld (HI DERE), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:47 (fifteen years ago) link
yo joe you can't DRINK on the subway, though - a disgraceful situation
― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:48 (fifteen years ago) link
wait now I don't know if I'm describing Boston or Philly
― Black Seinfeld (HI DERE), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:48 (fifteen years ago) link
agreed drinking should be allowed everywhere
― ice cr?m, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:51 (fifteen years ago) link
I don't hear the beverage industry crying to warshington for handouts!
― Passenger 57 (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:52 (fifteen years ago) link
youre sort of allowed to drink on the subway
― :) Mrs Edward Cullen XD (max), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:55 (fifteen years ago) link
jsut like youre sort of allowed to smell like shit and have no pants on and sleep at 2 in the afternoon sprawled out on four cars headed out to far rockaway
― :) Mrs Edward Cullen XD (max), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:56 (fifteen years ago) link