ILX Religiosity and Spirituality and Agnosticity and Atheicity Poll

they'd probably send you copious links to TED talks or something

jj's university

fwiw i happen to think that materialist rationality and spooky magical thinking can easily coexist in the same mind, like if i find $5 in a book about elephants i can happily think "hey, thanks ganesha" without deluding myself that an elephant god put that money there for me to find

i dunno - i mean when people proselytize about things - anything - there are basically a few reactions you can have:

1. i totally agree with you - oh, here's some new evidence to bolster my already strong beliefs - cool!
2. i totally agree with you, but it's kinda old news
3. hmm, interesting, tell me more!
4. i have mixed feelings, and i really don't want to go there
5. please stop

like last night i was reading some issue of XLR8R at a friend's house - and one of the interviews had this chick talking about her life-changing experiences at a Vipassanna meditation retreat - and a couple of my friends a few years back had done this, and had similar life-changing experiences, and "suggested" that I do this meditation retreat - but it was one of those things that, for me, was very much a "Please stop" moment.

Elephant gods would be too busy using their omnipotence to procure copious buns imo. xp

i have more pls stop moments relating to belief in the metaphysical parts of catholicism than any other single subject bar rafa benitez i think

Vipassanna meditation retreats & Joanna Newsom are kinda of equal proselytizing prevalence in my life in terms of "Please Stop!" moments

my one major problem with atheism per se is that it doesn't offer any sort of alternative to the many other good things that religion can offer -- wisdom, values, community, etc. and if the only virtue of atheism is "being right" it's small comfort against creeping nihilism.

(n.b. i'm not talking about 'humanism' or anything here, just atheism per se)

my one major problem with atheism per se is that it doesn't offer any sort of alternative to the many other good things that religion can offer -- wisdom, values, community, etc.

Those things are provided by people not gods. Therefore we can easily carry on providing wisdom, values and community in the absence of god.

lol don't make me get all banaka on you. being right ought to be comfort enough, even though it isn't...

"atheistic proselytizing" = when religious people talk about religion, stfu, we don't want to hear what you have to say even though we brought it up.

my one major problem with atheism per se is that it doesn't offer any sort of alternative to the many other good things that religion can offer -- wisdom, values, community,

cmon elmo seriously?

god put all those things into each of us?

yeah i'm not a theology major but that strikes me as really simple and wrong

you'll notice that i didn't say "god" -- i said & meant "religion"! xpost

well yeah, fair enough

but i mean, that stuff isn't there for atheists? i mean, pretty sure i got some of that stuff tbh

free juice and cookies at the komsomol meetings, seems nice enough

Why should atheism preclude you from being engaged with a religious institution on any level that matters? I don't think open atheism will ever gain a credible foothold in the US until you allow for it to include church-going ones.

i'm really confused by that philip. a church of atheists, or atheists involving themselves in existing (or new!) religions?

There's a line in Julia Sweeney's conversion story where she keeps pressing her priest until he finally takes her aside and goes, "Juilia, the Bible is basically a bunch of stories."
I'm just saying that the priest ought to be allowed to say this openly, and not just in secret people who are fretting over their faith during family crises.

pretty sure priests say that oenly all the time, but i don;t see the jump to atheists having to join churches. why?

You know, I might spot you "community," although I think that's less a function of religion per se than of churches and sects, but I question whether "religion" -- again, religion per se, just like atheism per se -- provides "values" and "wisdom." The values provided by religion are as often negative -- or, at least, negatively impactful on actual people -- as they are positive. And wisdom? What wisdom, specifically, is provided by "religion" per se?

I am atheist/agnostic but I have found value in a religious or spiritual tradition that I did not grow up in.
- going with this over option 1, but I don't really think of Zen as being religious or spiritual

There are a lot of ways to say 'the Bible is basically a bunch of stories', and a lot of them don't involve being an atheist.

I think one way in which there can be church-going atheists is if you are new to a religious area, and want to get to know the community, it doesn't seem unreasonable to go help out at a church. I think one or two ilx0rs have stories of doing similar?

There are tons of church-going atheists at Unitarian Universalist churches, folks.

Phil D otm

xp to emily- or a soup kitchen, sports centre, etc. i get that you're saying it's a possibility, but i don't think it's what philip is saying- he seems (and apologies if not) it's a pity atheists don't get to go to church to experience community and wisdom

Also it's a bit rich to be all "where have you ever created communities?" to a segment of the population that is still only 2% worldwide.

ya true in civ we'd still be in wagons

i now regret not taking more time and including "not allowing your child medical attention" in my pulling the hitler card list. the other thing you site about dude sacrificing money so that he can spread the faith is maybe a little more real, but still v v uncommon. what im saying is that for the garden variety believer, i dont see how convincing them of atheism is going to save them from unhappiness as a general rule - most religious peeps find great comfort in their religion as i understand it throughout their lives, the last thing they need is me trying to save them from their supposed ignorance.

"There are a lot of ways to say 'the Bible is basically a bunch of stories', and a lot of them don't involve being an atheist."
What would be the practical difference? I feel like there'd be no beef between an atheist and any Christian who starts from that POV.

I don't think the pity is that they can't go (in fact I think a lot of them do go), it's that they can't go openly, and serve as
a moderating influence.

! on what/whom?

jj, that's fine, and like I said upthread, I don't much care what people personally believe as opposed to what they do, and I mostly just keep my mouth shut when family or friends talk turn to god, even though I'm still not sure exactly why I should. I don't try to convince anyone of anything, but they all sure spend a lot of time trying to save my heathen soul.

lol, I am kind of giggling at the "why don't more atheists go to church?" questions because CLEARLY you folks don't know enough professional choristers

also Phil N you are kind of insane

The practical difference would be that one believes in God and the other one doesn't. To take examples, I could easily imagine a beef between an atheist who says the Bible is a bunch of stories meaning that it is all fiction and should be treated as on a par with the last Steven King novel, and a Christian who says the Bible is a bunch of stories meaning it is a guide written by spiritual leaders full of allegories that help one to live ones life.

(Also, haha, Hi Dere, I completely forgot about members of my family who go to church to sing. Though I don't think they are atheists, more lapsed protestant agnostics.)

re: who would it moderate --
On people who don't think the Bible is just a bunch of stories, basically.
I feel like a lot of the culture war is being lost against them (e.g. global warming, science teaching, stem cells, gay marriage, etc...)
and it would be helpful for decent, church-going folks, going, every now and then,
"hold on, there, fellas. remember, the bible is just a bunch of stories."
and then there'd be murmors and scattered shouts of "the deacon's right!"

and then they have an orgy

*I* only go to church to sing. Which makes it extremely disappointing when I'm somewhere with a disappointing hymnal full of thin, reedy, modern arrangements that strip out the harmonies to make it easier for the amateur pianists in someone's PRAISE CHORUS to follow along.

Although tbh when the parts I know don't fit, I just sing them louder.

lol, I am kind of giggling at the "why don't more atheists go to church?" questions because CLEARLY you folks don't know enough professional choristers

my dads an atheist & played the organ in the local church for 20+ years. guy just likes playing the organ. i sometimes used to go along with him as a kid & sit next to him, help pulling out the stops. it was fun!

*I* only go to church to sing. Which makes it extremely disappointing when I'm somewhere with a disappointing hymnal full of thin, reedy, modern arrangements that strip out the harmonies to make it easier for the amateur pianists in someone's PRAISE CHORUS to follow along.

Although tbh when the parts I know don't fit, I just sing them louder.

haha I do the same thing

also I make up descants for praise songs (note: I am a bass/baritone)

descant praise

my one major problem with atheism per se is that it doesn't offer any sort of alternative to the many other good things that religion can offer -- wisdom, values, community, etc. and if the only virtue of atheism is "being right" it's small comfort against creeping nihilism.

ffs if you want to know why some atheists might be uncomfortably shrill it's because they get told that this is how they feel

this is not contributing to this discussion but i had to post this hilarious rapture image YT link somewhere

btw I'll cop to being mostly a nihilist but it doesn't mean I'm not capable of awe and wonder and I'll those other "spiritual" things

"I could easily imagine a beef between an atheist who says the Bible is a bunch of stories meaning that it is all fiction and should be treated as on a par with the last Steven King novel, and a Christian who says the Bible is a bunch of stories meaning it is a guide written by spiritual leaders full of allegories that help one to live ones life."

Stuff like this, though, doesn't feel like an interfaith beef. I mean, I don't feel the Bible is bereft of life lessons, so I could theoretically have the same beef with this godless dude tag-teaming with my new Xian buddy, also because I like Stephen King.

Oh God (ha), did I spell Stephen King wrong? Sorry, I've been quite careless with my post editing today.

But anyway, surely it isn't an interfaith beef, because atheists by definition don't have faith. Also, there are many gradations between my two examples, those two were merely illustrations to prove that there IS a practical difference in attitude.

I get there would be a kind of 'tude divide between atheists who have no use for the church and those who
do voluntarily attend, but I can't imagine atheists that do attend going to hear scary stories, unless it's
some hellhouse kind of thing.
also, i spelled it wrong, too! but i felt compelled by an unseen presence to change it.

cad, the point i want to make is that atheism doesn't really have a cultural traditions parallel to religious culture. and i said 'atheism' -- i'm not trying to describe any particular atheist as lacking wisdom, values, or a sense of community. but it seems to me that an atheist those things have to be found outside of atheism -- or if you crib these things from a religion, in spite of it.

just -- i think of atheism as negating the existence of god and by extension, religion. that void gets filled somehow, and it'd be nice to see atheists advocating humanism / an ethical life / whatever rather than see certain atheists shitting on ppl's beliefs and giving y'all a reputation.

agree with all of that--i think most reasonable atheists do advocate an ethical life! but i don't think it's a failing of atheism not to provide those things (why would it want to) and disagree that it doesn't have virtues beyond "being right."