ILX Religiosity and Spirituality and Agnosticity and Atheicity Poll

Well, off you go to join the Order of Friars Minor Capuchin, and you can have all the sweet, milky coffee your heart desires!

It is interesting, the people who abandon the faith side, but keep the ritual side, because it gets at that notion that religion is an expression of human culture, not the sole cause of it. The expression of one's culture, one's background, remains significant, even after the philosophical defining signifier has gone. (There might be a correlary in the debates last week about people who remain faithful to class culture or labels, even after the class signifiers have gone.) People just like feeling connected to their roots, to who they are and where they come from. (That might also be considered a "spiritual" need in the non-religious sense of the word.)

i voted "I am atheist/agnostic but I was raised in a religious tradition and I like to maintain at least some contact with that"

i was raised as a Unitarian Universalist, which doesn't particularly demand acceptance of a higher power, and i've found i still get something out of the occasional church service/sermon without having to make any hard decisions about that sort of thing

it gets at that notion that religion is an expression of human culture, not the sole cause of it.

I think this is probably a good summation.

I wasn't raised with any church (my parents married in an Episcopal/Anglican church my dad's parents kind of treated like a social club, surprise) and after doing a tour of all my friends' religions over the course of a school year when I was 11, I went full-on atheist. Maybe my grandmother's funeral being hijacked by Jehovah's Witnesses had something to do with it too, was more like an infomercial for JWs than a memorial for a dead person TBH (until then I didn't know that when my mom and her sibs were kids, they spent 5-10 years as JWs because said grandmother was a loony). That doesn't mean I'm not fascinated by religions themselves - my high school had a great comparative religions course and I've always been interested in myth, so good fit.

Having gone to a school with lots of Jewish people, I have lots of 'lapsed Jewish' friends who've married out, etc - but I find I am taking one of these to Golders Green next week to seek out hamentaschen.

I ended up voting "spiritual but not religious" and tried to just cut off the supercillious dismissive end of that option, but it's not a perfect fit.

Because I am still, obviously, very interested in religion, and do not think it should be abolished, mainly because of its cultural importance (in both senses of the word: 1) as belonging to a group of people and 2) it seems to inspire some really interesting art) as well as its providing a framework for allowing people to keep a "spiritual" (in my definition, as stated above) element in their lives.

I was obviously raised Christian - my mum is a priest, my dad is a hardcore atheist, I was presented both sides of the story and taught to make up mine own mind. I was intensely religious as a child, went through a period of being intensely *anti*-Christian in my rebellious late teens and early 20s, but it's like a question that will never leave me alone. Spent most of my 20s and early 30s being officially "agnostic" - while still being really interested in and learning about *all* religions - but the recent culture wars have actually tipped me into the theist camp. I think that the right to *Freedom* of Religion (or indeed, freedom not to have one) is something worth fighting for. And that means fighting for the right of people to *have* one if they have that kind of a personality bent.

I am probably some kind of vague Deist (the vagueness comes from the constant need to examine and ask questions, not from lack of having thought about it) - on account of the deep-level order and symmetry of nature and maths (insert quips about anthropic principles and "goldilocks universe" here). I *choose* to call that deep level order and symmetry "god" (and my appreciation of it "spiritual") - even knowing the whole host of negative associations with that word, *because* I want to reinforce the importance and primacy of that idea. So when people start talking dismissively about "the supernatural" WRT spirituality, I just want to laugh because there's nothing *more* natural than my particular god-concept.

But then again, this might just be lapsed Episcopalianism coming out in me, that I want to keep hold of a lot of those lovely cultural traditions that I was raised in, even after I've left the Church. (I have recently been re-reading the books of Madeleine L'Engle that I loved as a child, and was rather startled to discover the seam of theology running through them - and really wondering if my philosophy is related to hers *because* I read these books so heavily as a child, or because we were both so steeped in the liberal Episcopalian tradition that we both absorbed similar ideas - and/both, probably.)

Voted the first option -- "I am a hardcore atheist. I don't want to go anywhere near a house of worship unless it's for my cousin's wedding." -- but it's not like I get in people's shit about it. My family know I'm an atheist (it's on my lol Facebook page), but:

- My mother and her family are mainline Protestants, and a few seem to have become born-agains late in life.
- My mother-in-law and her husband are evangelicals; in fact, he's an ordained minister in their denomination.
- My father is a secular Jew, but recently started investigating meditation and other Eastern spiritual practices after battling throat cancer.

So, frankly, when family members start up with the god talk, I mostly just keep my damned mouth shut. I will say that, particularly regarding my in-laws, my observation is that their religion as practiced seems to actually bring them nothing but misery. They are in some dire personal and financial straits, and seem to be waiting for Jebus to bail them out without doing anything on their own, then are confused when nothing gets better. And they are in those straits because he quit a perfectly good job as a project manager at an architectural firm to become a minister, eventually sinking all their savings into purchasing a storefront church which dealt primarily with drug addicts. Who really don't tithe quite enough to support a full-time minister.

Anywho, believe what you want to believe -- it makes no nevermind either to me or to what is/isn't true.

Seems to be a bit of a backlash on against Category 1 Atheism

nope, just aginst being in people's faces about it tbh

It spills over

i used to think i didn't really have a problem with people being 'religious', until a close friend of mine told me he was thinking of becoming a priest. i said i was happy for him and that i'd support him, but inside i was a bit, i don't know, confused. i think he's gone off the idea now though.

well tbh i'd kinda consider it strange for anyone my age to consider priesthood, and one of my mates? i'd find it hard to visualise, really.

Not exactly a respectable profession these days

well no, aside from all that tbh

Just had to skip Have a Talk with God on Songs in the Key of Life 'cause seriously that's the kind of cognitive dissonance i just can't comprehend. 'The one who never lets you down'? Whatevs.

I'm trying to remember the age at which my mum announced that she had decided she was going to become a priest. I think it was after 40 but before 50. Do you reckon that's strange?

(I think, for her, mind you, it was 1) the whole struggle of trying to do that rigourous a study while raising a young family - I can remember her starting at Cambridge in the 70s but having to give up and 2) waiting for the idea to come around to general acceptance of a woman being a priest at all, let alone a middle aged one with two children.)

I do think that age provides a perspective from which religious or spiritual matters may look different, or have a different level of importance. So it doesn't really surprise me when people come to (or leave) religions in middle age, or later.

xp my first thought was "shit. no sex, no drink, no fun". then quickly said out loud "oh wow that's great!" bizarre moment.

I was brought up extremely religious....I literally spent my childhood in the synagogue, either through these youth clubs, sunday school/cheder or prayers itself. Of course, I broke off as I got older, but I can't deny what an impact Judaism and Jewish culture has had on the way I see the world. You cannot forget who you are.

I think my actual reaction was "oh shit, does that mean we have to have the fucking bishop round for dinner even more, now?"

However it was an excuse to get the good sherry out.

Yeah, becoming a Catholic priest means you're (supposed to) give up on, uh, some stuff you might otherwise be getting up to. Silly organisation.

xp my first thought was "shit. no sex, no drink, no fun". then quickly said out loud "oh wow that's great!" bizarre moment.

― The referee was perfect (Chris)

had the same reaction to my best friend getting engaged a month or two ago. seriously.

-I am an atheist, religions are wrong or misguided and I see no point in indulging them
-I am an atheist, personally, but I accept that the spiritual or religious experience may be useful to others

see even this is too binary. I'm definitely down with the first one, but not quite so arrogant or hubristic as to deny the second. organised religion might suck imo but that doesn't mean i'm completely blind to the benefits it might have for individual communities or people. and likewise as a diehard materialist i might think that spirituality is just a psychological phenomenon, but it's a real and potentially useful phenomenon nonetheless.

this is a really good post and kind of gets at my feelings. it's funny to read that a lot of you find your atheism mellowed out over time b/c i find mine getting stronger--i have really been hating on some religion in the past couple years. but totally feeling the "not so arrogant" concept when it comes to individual experiences of religion and spirituality.

I wouldn't describe myself as a hardcore atheist either, as I concede that there is a possibility that there is a god, I just think it's extremely unlikely. This position is stronger than agnosticism, however.

I don't get why this is stronger than agnosticism - at least by my definition. I don't think of myself as an atheist because I think it's just as presumptuous to claim to know that god doesn't exist as it is to claim that one does.

I'm totally with you though on the "spirituality" thing having connotations of outside influence rather than simply having your brain chemicals tweaked in a particular way.

I was raised Catholic and do love old churches, but for history and not any spiritual reasons. I spent a day at the Vatican this summer and it totally blew my mind, in a way that was probably the opposite of what they intended - it made me think about how much untoward shit was done in the name of god over the centuries and how ridiculously opulent and excessive it all was.

I was telling my still sort of Catholic mom about it and she told me how she stopped giving money to the church at collection time right when all the big child abuse scandals were happening, and now she donates time to help people locally to ensure that none of her money goes to Rome which really made me happy.

I am atheist/agnostic but I was raised in a religious tradition and I like to maintain at least some contact with that
I am atheist/agnostic but I have found value in a religious or spiritual tradition that I did not grow up in.

I chant Hare Krsna on japa beads and keep deities of Sri Sri Gaura-Nitai - I don't believe, but I enjoy the act of worship and the concepts that the process succeeds in keeping at the front of the mind (service, humility, all good things people do think about without worship but for me it is helpful). I also pray the Rosary but that is the tradition I was raised in. For a while there I did nightly offerings to the deities. freaked the guests right out tbh

You were making burnt offerings of vegetables?

"The altar is stained with tomato juice!"

bloody mary?

ha copied in the wrong part - I was answering sarahel's q :

what are these other spiritual practices that people weren't raised with but that they're drawn to?

the process succeeds in keeping at the front of the mind

without ever being able to do this myself, can totally see the benefits and get behind the concept

You were making burnt offerings of vegetables?

lol no there is a whole processing for converting prepared food into prasadam and it extends to the cooking process - more here if you're interested.

ah cool I totally know what I'm serving my houseguests tomorrow evening

people actually come to your house?

Might not be people

would say 'are lured' tbh - it's amazing what an interest in amateur medicine can lead you to

Now you're scaring me

lj are u claiming to be a doctor in bars cos thats not cool man

serve him with an ASBO

Yeah, take off that white coat and go home LJ

You cannot forget who you are.

Ditto. The Evangelicals scarred my worldview for life. Am misquoting someone here but... I don't believe I could live as if there IS no god, I just haven't found a god I can stand to believe in.

gr8080 and I actually grew up in the same denomination but I think his experience of it was possibly less...prescriptive than mine?

Also I took religious very very seriously, like I believed that what you think and what you do in secret is no secret to God and is therefore under just as much scrutiny/pressure as your public life. There IS no private life in Protestant Xtianity, really. Unless yr like a Methodist or sumthin. (joeks)

how about "I am a hardcore atheist and I don't think people who believe in magical faeries, demon goblins, virgin-birthed superheros or talking snakes should be allowed to hold public office or operate heavy machinery"?

I don't believe I could live as if there IS no god

I just do not understand this, so I suppose that makes me a bit of a hardcore atheist

I'm a mixture of options 3 and 6 and don't see them as mutually exclusive at all

also the ocean at night is teh awesome

also Kate OTM throughout here

Are there any Jewish ILXors reading who are atheist/agnostic but still at least semi-observant?

I'm kinda like this...? Although I don't consider myself an atheist at all, I also find the Old Testament conception of God to be mostly lolz. I have loads of respect for various Jewish traditions and schools of thought tho (it's a BIG tent) and definitely consider myself Jewish, if not particularly observant.

shanah tovah btw

basically imho God is totally inscrutable/unknowable/ungraspable by the human intellect, except in the most tangential and random ways (thus my affinity for the "poetry of the ocean at night"). There's plenty of room for this POV in Judaism.

basically imho God is totally inscrutable/unknowable/ungraspable by the human intellect, except in the most tangential and random ways (thus my affinity for the "deep symmetry of nature and mathematics").

^^^^^^^^Yeah, totally, this is a really good way of putting it (edited for my particular understanding/experience though I can see lots of things fitting in that slot.)

Because I am still, obviously, very interested in religion, and do not think it should be abolished, mainly because of its cultural importance (in both senses of the word: 1) as belonging to a group of people and 2) it seems to inspire some really interesting art) as well as its providing a framework for allowing people to keep a "spiritual" (in my definition, as stated above) element in their lives.

I think it's interesting how many people on this thread give some variation on this answer, which is sort of a detached, objective kind of answer. I guess I was more curious about what kind of personal connection and/or revulsion people feel. I mean I say the same kind of thing about religion all the time, but those sentiments never got me into a synagogue. What did get me into synagogue last night for the first time in a while was more of a combination of family, tradition, curiosity, perhaps a certain sense of something I lost from my childhood.

Like it's funny how we tend to say "Yes, I see the value of religion in people's lives" as though we're talking about other people but not ourselves. Fine for them, no thanks for me.

xpost and I should add that my skin crawled for about the first 30 minutes I was in synagogue before I settled down and sort of started to enjoy certain things about it. And I still really hated certain things about it (the zombie-like responsive readings that are actually kind of creepy but you don't realize it, the obligatory appeal to support Israel, the feeling that some people were mostly there to be seen [this was a high-end manhattan synagogue that I wound up at through a friend of my mother in law])

The main reason that I phrased it in third person is because I am generally thinking of very direct experience of people like my mother and her congregation.

I'm also perfectly happy to say "I see the value of religion and spirituality in my own life" however I am NOT willing to discuss that value on a messageboard where people generally like to play other people's experiences for cheap LOLs any further than the vague terms in which I have already discussed it.

I mean, sorry to continuously post, but what do we really mean when we say we see the value in other people's lives? Are we just accepting a kind of stalemate with religion because it won't go away? Are we sincere?