The Power Of Nightmares/Adam Curtis

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I don't know what I did wrong with that link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

― Alba, Monday, 12 March 2007 01:31 (nineteen years ago)

perhaps by "worst outcome for both parties" you mean aggregated worst outcome

YES. Thankyou for giving me a plausible get-out from my faux pas.

― ledge, Monday, 12 March 2007 08:55 (nineteen years ago)

Like most other posters I found this fascinating and thought-provoking without actually agreeing with much of it. There is a distinction, surely, between saying that game theory may be a useful predictor of human nature within a large population, and imagining that the motivations of individuals can be reduced to that kind of strategising. That some people have used game theory in a pernicious way does not make it pernicious per se.

I also thought that Curtis failed to distinguish between situations where game theory may have been the cause of behaviour, situations where it may have been part of the causal mix, and situations where it was kind of added flavour to something that would have happened in a very similar way without it. Thatcher's hostility to entrenched, paternalist institutions, for example, did not originate with game theory, although it may have been a useful extra stick to beat them with. "Yes Minister" may have been original in using game theory as a conscious underpinning: but it was comfortably within a very long satirical tradition exposing the behaviour of governmental ministers and bureaucrats as motivated by obsessive self-interest masquerading under a thin veneer of hypocrisy.

― frankiemachine, Monday, 12 March 2007 11:12 (nineteen years ago)

The question is, does Curtis use game theory in his seldom-acknowledged role as co-editor of Popbitch?

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 12 March 2007 11:19 (nineteen years ago)

He's kind of the James Burke of political paranoia, isn't he? I can see how it makes watchable tv, but I'm not sure he's ultimately saying much more than that people in advanced capitalist economies become increasingly selfish.

― Stevie T, Monday, 12 March 2007 11:24 (nineteen years ago)

That explains why Popbitch are always going on about teh power of teh nightmares.

One thing always strikes me about game theory - it always leads to rubbish games. Can you imagine inviting some friends over for a game of Prisoners' Dilemma?

― The Real Dirty Vicar, Monday, 12 March 2007 11:27 (nineteen years ago)

It might be fun if the stakes were high enough. No good with matchsticks.

― Alba, Monday, 12 March 2007 12:04 (nineteen years ago)

Somehow despite setting the timer for this my previously unassilable recording machine decided not to record it. :(

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 12 March 2007 12:08 (nineteen years ago)

Now the machine has betrayed you once, I think they best policy would be to not set it next week.

― Alba, Monday, 12 March 2007 12:11 (nineteen years ago)

Times interview on Saturday revealed the usual craven copout:
"What are your politics?"
"Well, you know, left and right are such antiquated..."
TORY!!!!

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 12 March 2007 12:12 (nineteen years ago)

I have not had time to read all the updates, and I am off in a minute, but I thought last night's programme was not as good as the previous series, in fact it came over as quite tired. I am referring to the style rather than the content, which kind of confounded me at times, but I have "taped" it and am going to "tape" next week's epsiode too.

― PJ Miller, Monday, 12 March 2007 12:19 (nineteen years ago)

I think if you think of him as a lecturer with "this series is about", adjectival "very" and Brian Eno as his funny trademarks then the narrowness of his stylistic template becomes less bothersome.

― Alba, Monday, 12 March 2007 12:32 (nineteen years ago)

motherfucker, how did i miss this.

and wai no repeats beeb?

:(

― That one guy that quit, Monday, 12 March 2007 12:35 (nineteen years ago)

Can't you download it or something?

― Alba, Monday, 12 March 2007 12:50 (nineteen years ago)

i've never d/ld a uk show. could be interesting.

― That one guy that quit, Monday, 12 March 2007 12:56 (nineteen years ago)

I missed the first half, but the archive shots of 1960s and 1970s computers greatly annoyed me - I just kept thinking "what does this have to do with the narration, exactly?"

― Forest Pines, Monday, 12 March 2007 14:27 (nineteen years ago)

The archive material in the Power of Nightmares, especially the first part, was fantastic, and I was wondering whether or not there would be the same kind of source material for this subject matter.

the computers determined probabilities and the future of human society! no doubt they will turn on us in subsequent episodes.

Now the machine has betrayed you once, I think they best policy would be to not set it next week.

or maybe they already have.

― Gukbe, Monday, 12 March 2007 14:33 (nineteen years ago)

If you do a search for it on i s o h u nt. com there's a torrent there. Just tried it and it seemed to work at about 30kB/s.

― Alba, Monday, 12 March 2007 15:04 (nineteen years ago)

I will look have to look for torrents of this.

The question is, does Curtis use game theory in his seldom-acknowledged role as co-editor of Popbitch?

I still like his documentaries, but I lost a lot of respect for him once I found out about this a while back.

― Nicole, Monday, 12 March 2007 15:17 (nineteen years ago)

I thought the Popbitch thing was a joke. Wow.

Somehow I respect him more, but question his ability to identify the descent of Western Civilisation into self-made slavery.

― Gukbe, Monday, 12 March 2007 15:58 (nineteen years ago)

I still haven't seen this latest one, but there was a whodunit sort of feel to Power of Nightmares that really worked. Maybe that sort of approach works less well when applied to a more abstract subject?

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 12 March 2007 16:06 (nineteen years ago)

He was also responsible for bringing us a dog who could say "sausages" on That's Life.

― Michael Jones, Monday, 12 March 2007 16:06 (nineteen years ago)

i think i preferred 'century of the self' to the last one probably cos it was more generalizing or something, in a way less contentious. they're not books, they're essays, and they're more thought-provoking than almost any other non-fic tv. i bet i asked where i could see 'the mayfair set' before and i bet someone told me.

― That one guy that quit, Monday, 12 March 2007 16:09 (nineteen years ago)

I started watching and wished I had been more in the mood for it, I got that sunday night drifting feeling. I've not seen much of his stuff other than nightmares but seems stylistically almost identical.

― secondhandnews, Monday, 12 March 2007 16:59 (nineteen years ago)

The Mayfair Set is terrific. You can watch it at:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6727851691163240683&q=mayfair+set

― Alba, Monday, 12 March 2007 17:03 (nineteen years ago)

it is identifiably 'adam curtis' but that's pretty much what he does, same goes for broomfield or moore or errol morris.

― That one guy that quit, Monday, 12 March 2007 17:04 (nineteen years ago)

I thought the Popbitch thing was a joke. Wow.

Even weirder is that Neil Stevenson, of Popbitch and The Face fame, is credited as a researcher for The Power of Nightmares.

― James Mitchell, Monday, 12 March 2007 20:19 (nineteen years ago)

Neil Stevenson --> Neal Stephenson

― elmo argonaut, Monday, 12 March 2007 20:21 (nineteen years ago)

hot damn alba, thanx!

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 09:20 (nineteen years ago)

Does that google video link only last for 12secs for anyone else?!

― toby, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 07:37 (nineteen years ago)

Oh dear - looks like they pulled it. It was the full thing, all four episodes in one, the other day.

― Alba, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 07:53 (nineteen years ago)

aw :(

this is what i thought bbc4 would be about, repeats of that kind of thing.

― That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 09:33 (nineteen years ago)

I don't suppose anyone happened to save it before it disappeared?!

― toby, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 19:06 (nineteen years ago)

There's a RM download of it http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/video_drugsmoney.htm

― Elvis Telecom, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 22:19 (nineteen years ago)

Well I still haven't seen the first one but I thought last night's episode was a doozy! Possibly a bit unfocused/overambitious with his examples but that's his steez, and I think he's already gone further towards working round to his thesis (that the atomized, self-interested definition of freedom advanced in Western democracies over the last few decades has perversely led to less freedom and greater control over individuals) than he did in Power of Nightmares (that both American neoconservatism and Islamic terrorism benefit certain people and make other people suffer: we never quite got to that part, despite it being promised in the introduction of each of that series' episodes).

Showing Muqtada al-Sadr's face to go unironically with the words "anti-democratic" in the script seems off to me. Yeah the guy has a great scowl and looks really evil but as far as opposition to Western-imposed democratic institutions goes, al-Sadr's hardly the poster boy. He formed a political party and worked with the new parliament!

Some of the footage made me wonder - "how did they get that piece of footage??" - rather than focus on what was being said. That said, I am consistently awed at the editing in Curtis' films and the open-minded inventiveness it must take to even think of looking for some of this stuff, much less the time it must take to track it down.

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 19 March 2007 15:20 (nineteen years ago)

Of tangential interest, u k n o v a seems to have have slots open for new users if you head there right now.

― Alba, Monday, 19 March 2007 16:30 (nineteen years ago)

(there's a bundle on there of Pandora's Box, The Mayfair Set, The Century of the Self and The Power of Nightmares at the moment, as well as The Trap)

― Alba, Monday, 19 March 2007 16:31 (nineteen years ago)

I'm helping to seed that bundle. Leech away!

― Elvis Telecom, Monday, 19 March 2007 18:55 (nineteen years ago)

teh m4yf4ir set is also back back back on google video. might report back.

haveta say, 'the trap' -- based on seeing about 1/2 of it -- did sort of go over familiar ground a bit too much.

for some reason i had to read that berlin essay one time.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 11:13 (nineteen years ago)

ep 3 was just a little 80s/90s history reminder and precious little point beside it.

― Alan, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 11:16 (nineteen years ago)

Some of us need reminding!

In terms of structure this series went almost to the opposite extreme that Power of Nightmares did - whereas each ep. of PoN was very similar, variations on a theme, each episode of The Trap was very different - to the point where I was like "game theory? I forgot all about that"

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 11:33 (nineteen years ago)

I am saving up epsiodes 2 and 3. Perhaps I will watch them tonight. Either that or Father Ted.

― PJ Miller, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 12:14 (nineteen years ago)

you can't have too much of the score from 'north by northwest'.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 20:12 (nineteen years ago)

good ringtone.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 20:13 (nineteen years ago)

What's the other tune used in the last cpl of TRAPs? The sinister rumbling 80s synthy one, the one that goes dern dern-der-der-de-de... dern dern-der-der-de-de... ?

― NI, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 20:59 (nineteen years ago)

'assault on precinct 13'?

― That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 22:05 (nineteen years ago)

That's it, thanks.

― NI, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 23:31 (nineteen years ago)

Some valid criticisms here.

'Adam Curtis and BBC2 deserve much credit for keeping alive the idea of the ambitious, single-voice television essay. But there is something deeply worrying when the style of debate we are given plays with ideas without understanding them, and exploits our fascination with conspiracies. Difficult ideas take time to understand, and are not helped by fast cutting, the indiscriminate use of grainy documentary footage and suggestive music.'

www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=8358

― Pete W, Thursday, 29 March 2007 10:14 (nineteen years ago)

Some of the footage made me wonder - "how did they get that piece of footage??" - rather than focus on what was being said. That said, I am consistently awed at the editing in Curtis' films and the open-minded inventiveness it must take to even think of looking for some of this stuff, much less the time it must take to track it down.

"Curtis has a remarkable feel for the serendipity of such moments, and an obsessive skill in locating them. 'That kind of footage shows just how dull I can be,' he admits, a little glumly. 'The BBC has an archive of all these tapes where they have just dumped all the news items they have ever shown. One tape for every three months. So what you get is this odd collage, an accidental treasure trove. You sit in a darkened room, watch all these little news moments, and look for connections.'"

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1334518,00.html

― czn, Thursday, 29 March 2007 19:29 (nineteen years ago)

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